Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Hardware, coding, music, graphic and various applications

Moderators: lp, moondog/.tSCc., Moderator Team

Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

1st1 wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:59 pm
mpattonm wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:25 pm Not to mention that while 060s are (becoming) rare, 040s are virtually non-existent on the market.
I checked yesterday on eBay, and I found more than 68030.
Pretty sure that's the case. While risk of buying a relabled 040 is moderate, all (of the 6) here run at 44MHz on the Afterburner.
Yes, it requires a fan :)
And that due in part to dram technology. Without fast ram installed, I've ran the AB at 50MHz. Without fast ram though, it's just numbers.

As far as 040 code compatibility goes, doubt few applications were actually compiled for the 040 itself, outside of MiNT. And those that were have the program as an addition to a distribution. The 040 sings happily along with probably 98% of existing software, and with the aid of fast ram, easily 3x that of a Stock Falcon. Granted, a 50MHz 030 is fast, but not quite :)

While an 030 expansion board is easier (he says in jest) to implement than an 040, think that's due to the 040 having achieved a short presence in the Atari world, with more knowledge about the 030 and bus.

The Afterburner 040 has very little logic to get it running, the largest effort was in the Took Kit Doug Little developed.

To boot, with on-board logic, the major part is taking over the bus early, as the CT does at boot in a fashion, loads TOS into ST RAM, patches incompatible 030 code (actually NOP), and does a warm boot.

It's such a simple design, to bad the code for the logic isn't available.
User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 3107
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by alexh »

Depends which logic chips they are. It's now possible to defeat the security on some older CPLDs allowing them to be read
Principal ASIC Engineer
520 ST, 4160 STfm, 4160 STe, MegaST2, MegaSTe 4, Falcon060, Jaguar
Thalion Webshrine
Atari Forum Wiki
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

alexh wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:05 am Depends which logic chips they are. It's now possible to defeat the security on some older CPLDs allowing them to be read
Badwolf, promise I'll stop slumming in your thread. It's the only place the poor AB gets bus and timing attention :)

7 - MACH 210 12JC-14J's.
Found an old article (somewhere), discussed how to go about reading them.
Surface mounted, would have use test clips.
Probably a bit over my head.
Do have a spare unit for a qualified individual with resources :)

Something Badwolf managed with his card is to avoid the 7 bodge wires the AB requires to be picked off the Falcon bus GALs.
Painstakingly slow, he says :)
User avatar
Badwolf
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Badwolf »

Quick progress report, chaps:

https://youtu.be/ZNltWQFpvtw

BW
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 5936
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by joska »

Very interesting! Have you tested this on an accelerated motherboard?
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega STE - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64
joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 5936
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by joska »

Btw one suggestion for the next/final revision: Add through-headers for the expansion port, so we can use graphics cards with the accelerator. The CT60 does not have this, which is the only reason why I mostly use my Milan and Falcon/AB for programming. My Falcon/AB has a Mach 64 which makes a huge difference in terms of usability.
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega STE - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64
User avatar
Badwolf
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Badwolf »

joska wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:40 pm Very interesting! Have you tested this on an accelerated motherboard?
Hi Jo,

So far only tested on my board which only has the clock mod applied.
joska wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:48 pm Btw one suggestion for the next/final revision: Add through-headers for the expansion port, so we can use graphics cards with the accelerator. The CT60 does not have this, which is the only reason why I mostly use my Milan and Falcon/AB for programming. My Falcon/AB has a Mach 64 which makes a huge difference in terms of usability.
No room!

The best bet is to piggyback headers, which isn’t hard before the sockets go on, or to use long pinned female connectors as I did with the rev 1.

I’d have loved to expose the 32 bit bus, but it’s a choice of that or the PSU.

BW
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
Fletch
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Fletch »

I am very interested in this! I'm looking forward to the eventually availability to purchase.
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

Badwolf wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:25 pm Quick progress report, chaps:

https://youtu.be/ZNltWQFpvtw

BW
Great video, better than Dune :)
User avatar
viking272
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 961
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:50 pm
Location: west of London, UK

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by viking272 »

I think all non 68060 Falcons need this!

The route to market though will be interesting as BW has said the plan will be open source. If you have the skills then it will be possible to build and make but economies of scale will work if someone made 50 or 100 units.

From the licensing view is it possible to build them up to sell for profit? Is anyone thinking of doing this?
MegaSTEarian
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:23 pm

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by MegaSTEarian »

Badwolf wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:25 pm Quick progress report, chaps:

https://youtu.be/ZNltWQFpvtw

BW

Wonderful job, BadWolf!
Looking forward to seeing the final product.
User avatar
Atari030
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 784
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:14 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Atari030 »

I'd love to see how this benches against a CT2b. It's really nice to see this kind of Falcon love.
joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 5936
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by joska »

Badwolf wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:40 pm The best bet is to piggyback headers, which isn’t hard before the sockets go on, or to use long pinned female connectors as I did with the rev 1.
Long pinned connectors are fine, but I was mostly worried about it actually working. Rodolphe said for many years that the CT60 would work fine with a graphics card as long as the user added a through-port to the graphics card. When someone actually tested this it turned out that the CT60 simply does not handle most expansion cards due to shortcomings in the interface logics.

CT60 + CTEX + ScreenEye review & experiments
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega STE - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64
User avatar
frank.lukas
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 2682
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:33 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by frank.lukas »

Ask Idek because he tested CT60 with Nova Falcon in those days ...
fancy Atari Musik anDA Dance "Agare Hinu Harukana" 1998 ATARI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX10fxb5eYE
mikro
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 4725
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 11:11 am
Location: Kosice, Slovakia

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by mikro »

He did? Successfully? I still have a Falcon NOVA laying around (and I could "borrow" a Mach64 from my TT) but I never bothered to try it with CTEX as two persons told me it doesn't work.
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

No, he wasn't successful. He has an old link where he shows his test and results.
To add
At one time did use an Expose capture card with NOVA ATI. The VGA program that displayed live video to desktop did work.
Don't know the technical aspects of it.
User avatar
Badwolf
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Badwolf »

joska wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:31 am
Badwolf wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:40 pm The best bet is to piggyback headers, which isn’t hard before the sockets go on, or to use long pinned female connectors as I did with the rev 1.
Long pinned connectors are fine, but I was mostly worried about it actually working. Rodolphe said for many years that the CT60 would work fine with a graphics card as long as the user added a through-port to the graphics card. When someone actually tested this it turned out that the CT60 simply does not handle most expansion cards due to shortcomings in the interface logics.

CT60 + CTEX + ScreenEye review & experiments

Hi there,

This is interesting, and not something I'd thought much about to be honest.

The most obvious issue I could imagine would be something that relied on CPUBGI line to become a bus master. I don't allow that (it's hard wired), although it's cutting of a single track if that were a requirement for somebody.

However I noticed discussion of the EXPAND line on that topic and notably this part of a reply from Mikro:
mikro wrote: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm I asked Rodolphe about his opinion now that he has a better perspective what should and shouldn't work and he is still confident that the CT60 should work with such card because they shouldn't do anything special, just behave as an I/O card. While he admits that the CT60 indeed doesn't pickup the /EXPAND line he still doesn't understand why the Eclipse and NOVA mess with it - I/O card should generate its DTACK when it needs to terminate the bus cycle and not use the /EXPAND (which is defined as something which I/O card must generate if it requires more than 4 CPU cycles). Either way, according to him these two guys have come to a wrong conclusion because even if the /EXPAND is needed/used by the cards, it doesn't make them bus masters, as the /EXPAND is for device cards (also it's hard to believe that those cards would contain a CPU or DMA).
I've interpreted things in the same way as Rodolphe, it seems. If something relies on the motherboard responding to EXPAND, this should continue to work as it would be passed straight through, however if it expects *my* board to act on EXPAND the same way the motherboard does, it will not.

I found the description of EXPAND nebulous -- it almost sounds like the motherboard generates XDTACK on behalf of an IO slave and the slave uses EXPAND to control when it does. Which is odd. Why not just generate your own XDTACK? The latter is what I do when acting in IO slave mode (for flash writes).

EXPAND is nothing to do with bus mastery, as far as I can tell.

However, since this will be open source, if it doesn't work on first go, it can hopefully be amended to by the interested party.

BW


PS: saw a discussion of bus error there too. I generate a bus error after 64 cycles without an XDTACK when accessing the FPU and at the top of TT-RAM. Otherwise bus errors are down to the motherboard.
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

czietz wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:29 pm
Cyprian wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:12 pm Impressive figures @czietz . It seems you have a special TT-RAM card (a new one?)
A Storm TT - which I run at 48 MHz, yes. A regular Storm TT (i.e., at 32 MHz) has about 17 - 20 MB/s:
https://wiki.newtosworld.de/index.php?t ... chmark.jpg

(But let's not hijack this thread too much :wink:)
One more hijack :)
Got the Afterburner stable at 50MHz.
Doug Littles Tool Kit makes impressive numbers, especially with the I,D and copyback caches on.
But that limits CPU speed to about 46MHz, just accesses the fast ram too quick.
Using the original AB drivers, fast ram is slower cached, CPU can be boosted another 4MHz.
Have a Quaddoubler 040 50MHz that uses a little logic to delay TS/TA, it will run at 55MHz.
But even at 46MHz, the refinements Doug made to the driver can't be beat.
Nice thing running COMBEL at 50MHz is flicker free VGA TC video mode, and snappy too.
Wish this board was programmable :(

Here's 50MHz CPU, caches enabled with the old driver. NOVA ATI

Code: Select all

Integer multiply (16bit)     -> 4.571 Mips (~745%)
Integer divide (16bit)       -> 1.855 Mips (~512%)
Linear (stalled) integer     -> 49.951 Mips (~627%)
Interleaved (piped) integer  -> 49.951 Mips (~627%)

Float multiply (64bit)       -> 10.369 MegaFlops (~3913%)
Float divide (64bit)         -> 1.365 MegaFlops (~789%)
Linear (stalled) float       -> 10.502 MegaFlops (~1970%)
Interleaved (piped) float    -> 16.718 MegaFlops (~3142%)

16bit read (100% hit)        -> 8.550 MByte/sec (~108%)
16bit write (100% hit)       -> 12.106 MByte/sec (~201%)
32bit read (100% hit)        -> 17.108 MByte/sec (~108%)
32bit write (100% hit)       -> 24.271 MByte/sec (~364%)

Linear 32bit read (ST-Ram)   -> 5.794 MByte/sec (~109%)
Linear 32bit write (ST-Ram)  -> 6.547 MByte/sec (~101%)
Linear 32bit copy (ST-Ram)   -> 3.079 MByte/sec (~95%)

Linear 32bit read (FastRAM)  -> 16.771 MByte/sec (~315%)
Linear 32bit write (FastRAM) -> 23.301 MByte/sec (~361%)
Linear 32bit copy (FastRAM)  -> 9.937 MByte/sec (~307%)

Linear burst copy (ST-Ram)   -> 3.706 MByte/sec (~114%)
Linear burst copy (FastRAM)  -> 29.654 MByte/sec (~918%)
Linear burst copy (ST->Fast) -> 6.527 MByte/sec (~202%)
Linear burst copy (Fast->ST) -> 6.501 MByte/sec (~201%)
This is 46MHz using the Afterburner Tool Kit. I,D cache.
With Copyback enabled, 32bit reads just to over 200MB/sec.

Code: Select all

Integer multiply (16bit)     -> 4.213 Mips (~687%)
Integer divide (16bit)       -> 1.706 Mips (~471%)
Linear (stalled) integer     -> 46.022 Mips (~578%)
Interleaved (piped) integer  -> 46.022 Mips (~578%)

Float multiply (64bit)       -> 9.525 MegaFlops (~3594%)
Float divide (64bit)         -> 1.264 MegaFlops (~730%)
Linear (stalled) float       -> 9.752 MegaFlops (~1829%)
Interleaved (piped) float    -> 15.456 MegaFlops (~2905%)

16bit read (100% hit)        -> 90.497 MByte/sec (~1152%)
16bit write (100% hit)       -> 90.909 MByte/sec (~1511%)
32bit read (100% hit)        -> 180.180 MByte/sec (~1147%)
32bit write (100% hit)       -> 178.571 MByte/sec (~2678%)

Linear 32bit read (ST-Ram)   -> 6.891 MByte/sec (~129%)
Linear 32bit write (ST-Ram)  -> 6.142 MByte/sec (~95%)
Linear 32bit copy (ST-Ram)   -> 3.286 MByte/sec (~101%)

Linear 32bit read (FastRAM)  -> 46.979 MByte/sec (~883%)
Linear 32bit write (FastRAM) -> 32.443 MByte/sec (~502%)
Linear 32bit copy (FastRAM)  -> 21.664 MByte/sec (~671%)

Linear burst copy (ST-Ram)   -> 3.474 MByte/sec (~107%)
Linear burst copy (FastRAM)  -> 27.363 MByte/sec (~847%)
Linear burst copy (ST->Fast) -> 6.102 MByte/sec (~189%)
Linear burst copy (Fast->ST) -> 6.182 MByte/sec (~191%)
joska
Hardware Guru
Hardware Guru
Posts: 5936
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:55 pm
Location: Florø, Norway

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by joska »

How do you manage to run the AB at 46MHz?
Jo Even

VanillaMiNT - Falcon060 - Milan060 - Falcon040 - MIST - Mega STE - Mega ST - STM - STE - Amiga 600 - Sharp MZ700 - MSX - Amstrad CPC - C64
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

joska wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:25 pm How do you manage to run the AB at 46MHz?
PM make sense?
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

Badwolf wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:40 pm
joska wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:40 pm Very interesting! Have you tested this on an accelerated motherboard?
Hi Jo,

So far only tested on my board which only has the clock mod.
BW
BW, let see if I can confuse my question :)

When developing your card, did you have to take into account (timing) the Falcon clock patch delay from COMBEL "CPU" clock out to the BUS GALS?

Know you synthesized some of the signals.
Curious if the delayed COMBEL clock running through those had and affect on your board design?

Thanks
User avatar
Badwolf
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Badwolf »

Rustynutt wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:19 pm When developing your card, did you have to take into account (timing) the Falcon clock patch delay from COMBEL "CPU" clock out to the BUS GALS?

Know you synthesized some of the signals.
Curious if the delayed COMBEL clock running through those had and affect on your board design?
There is some dependency on the motherboard clock line, but nothing I think that would be affected by shifting the clock 10ns one way or the other.

I didn't take anything especially into account, but as this board was developed entirely with the buffer in place, I've no data to know if a slightly earlier motherboard clock will affect it.

BW
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

Badwolf wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:47 pm
Rustynutt wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:19 pm When developing your card, did you have to take into account (timing) the Falcon clock patch delay from COMBEL "CPU" clock out to the BUS GALS?

Know you synthesized some of the signals.
Curious if the delayed COMBEL clock running through those had and affect on your board design?
There is some dependency on the motherboard clock line, but nothing I think that would be affected by shifting the clock 10ns one way or the other.

I didn't take anything especially into account, but as this board was developed entirely with the buffer in place, I've no data to know if a slightly earlier motherboard clock will affect it.

BW
Did you happen to note where your TS and TA started/fell with respect to the BUS clock?
Was it where it should be (MOT spec), or is 16MHz lazy enough to fall withing range?
User avatar
Badwolf
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Badwolf »

Rustynutt wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:51 pm Did you happen to note where your TS and TA started/fell with respect to the BUS clock?
Was it where it should be (MOT spec), or is 16MHz lazy enough to fall withing range?
Mine's an 030..! :?

BW
DFB1 Open source 50MHz 030 and TT-RAM accelerator for the Falcon
DSTB1 Open source 16Mhz 68k and AltRAM accelerator for the ST
Smalliermouse ST-optimised USB mouse adapter based on SmallyMouse2
FrontBench The Frontier: Elite 2 intro as a benchmark
Rustynutt
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1847
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:38 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Using the Falcon's expansion connector

Post by Rustynutt »

Badwolf wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:03 pm
Rustynutt wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:51 pm Did you happen to note where your TS and TA started/fell with respect to the BUS clock?
Was it where it should be (MOT spec), or is 16MHz lazy enough to fall withing range?
Mine's an 030..! :?

BW
Didn't even looks at how the 030 works :)
Kind of closing the books on using an 060 adapter on the 040 card. Too many years :)

Kind of shot the wad purchasing the Sparrows, yet still without an LA, so just been fishing.

Read through a lot of Amiga docs, gave me ideas, they are very similar.

Can say with about 99% certainty it's a hardware issue, not related to TOS.

Where the AB040 does indeed read and execute a diagnostic cart, with the 060 installed, it's not even getting out of reset, or at least setting up memory. No reason it shouldn't other than a hardware conflict right at power up. It uses a 5Vcc to 3.3Vcc to supply the 060 voltage, doubt it has to do with the powersupply ramp up, or Falcon reset circuit.

Tried the 060 at 1/2 and Full BUS thinking there could be a timing issue there.

Last question to you, the AB pulls several signals off the GALS to utilize on-board via its logic.

Began to wonder if the delay caused by the buffer was affecting something there with how the 060 depends on the BCLK to pick up BUS timing.

Wanted to ping Terrible Fire about his board design, last I'd seen on Exxos forum, that isn't released.

With the AB doing everything in PAL, as opposed to XYLINX and VHL, even the CT60 schematics really are not much help.

Maybe next step is to buy your spare Dave's Board and hack it :cheers:

Return to “Professionals”