VanillaMiNT on Atari TT030 with 4MB ST + 4MB Fast RAM?

[donapple]

Hello,

in order to be able to use the PAM's Net VME Ethernet card I just managed to acquire I wanted to install MiNT and decided to try VanillaMiNT from https://atari.joska.no/VanillaMiNT/

I've downloaded VanillaMiNT-030-1-19-cur-full.zip and after unpacking it on my Mac and then transferring the contents of all the included ZIP files on a disk image using Hatari, and then moving that disk image file onto the RaSCSI/PiSCSI that acts as the disk for the TT030, I was able to boot MiNT.

But then all I get is XaAES running, and when I then attempt to stop and/or restart XaAES a couple of times Tera Desktop comes up.

But then I'm not able to start any applications, I always get the following error message:

IMG_2570.JPG

Looking at the task Manger in XaAES it looks like all of the FastRAM is used, but there seems to be still some ST RAM free:

IMG_2569.JPG

Is 4MB ST + 4MB Fast RAM not enough for running VanillaMiNT or is there any way I can tweak the memory allocation somehow so that Applications will be able to start?

[ThorstenOtto]

Available memory might be one reason, but you should also check the protection bits of the programs. What filesystem does your diskimage use? Zip sometime has the bad habit of setting all the permission bits to 0, depending on which system was used to pack & unpack it. With 2MB free memory, you should be able to run atleast *some* programs.

[donapple]

Thanks for the suggestions.

The diskimage uses the standard TOS filesystem (formated and partitioned with HDDRUTIL from HDDriver 11.14).

[joska]

Looks like you are not using NVDI. This will result in the problems you're experiencing.

[donapple]

NVDI is installed and being started before MiNT (otherwise XaAES would crash with a segmentation fault).

But I've now managed to get this fixed by making some changes to some of the parameters in the MINT.CNF file:

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TPA_FASTLOAD=NO (was originally set to "YES")
TPA_INITIALMEM=1024 (was originally set to "8192")
#FS_CACHE_SIZE=1000 (was originally not commented out)
#FS_CACHE_PERCENTAGE=10 (was originally not commented out)

Now TeraDesk starts automatically and it is also possible to start all other applications without getting an error message.

[joska]

Thank you! Yes, it most likely a RAM issue, I don't think I've had any testers using VanillaMiNT on anything less than a 14Mb Falcon. I will make the necessary adjustments to the default settings.

[donapple]

Thanks!

In case you plan release a new version of VanillaMiNT I have a few suggestions for things that could be changed:
- the environment to start a shell from TosWin2 does not seem to be set up properly ("Start Shell" menu item is greyed out); would be great if this could be changed so that the included "SH.TTP" (which seems to be a version of BASH) can actually be used
- it would be nice if some basic tools to test the network connectivity like ping and traceroute could be included; while the graphical tool to configure the network is nice, without tools to test the network it is next to impossible to verify if the setup it creates does actually work or not.

Also the statement on https://atari.joska.no/VanillaMiNT/ that no drivers for ethernet adapters are included isn't correct, since there are actually drivers for the "Lance" based VME Ethernet cards and the Daynaport SCSILink included, but they are disabled by default. So maybe you could mention instead that if one of these Eternet adapters are used it can be enabled by changing the ending of the appropriate file from "XIX" to "XIF".

[ThorstenOtto]

("Start Shell" menu item is greyed out);

That happens when there is no /etc/passwd file. Toswin uses getpwent() to determine the shell that should be started. You can simple create one with a line

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root:x:0:0:root:/home:/bin/bash

"SH.TTP" (which seems to be a version of BASH) can actually be used

In the meantime, there are also some more lightweight alternatives available (/bin/sh in my archives for example, which is not identical to /bin/bash, or /bin/mksh which is a korn-shell derivate). Especially on a system with tight memory limits, maybe this could be considered.

[mikro]

@donapple: if you manage to live without Jo Even's nice UI tools for network setup, basically all of your points have been addressed in https://freemint.github.io/#snapshots :)

[donapple]

@mikro: thanks for the suggestion.

I've actually used the FreeMiNT snapshots originally, but since it did not include ping or any other tool to test the network connectivity, I thought I give VanillaMiNT a try since based on the description it sounded like it provides more tools to enable the network and also test it. But unfortunately, as mentioned above it is also missing ping and other tools to test the network.

The one benefit I see that VanillaMiNT has over the FreeMiNT snapshots with regards to the network setup, besides the GUI tools, is that it also provides the capability to use DHCP to configure the network. Maybe this could be added in the FreeMiNT snapshots as well (in addition to including ping and traceroute by default).

[stormy]

I know that Joska was working on VanillaMint2 which may or may not have included these extras, I think he stopped because he could not find a lightweight memory alternative to Tos2Win.

In it's current state, because it's been aging (version numbers) VanillaMint isn't as fit for purpose as it used to be. If Joska doesn't intend to update it in the future, then perhaps he might consider allowing Freemint to use his handy GUI configuration apps in their snapshots? I think it would be a good idea.

[ThorstenOtto]

ping can be found here: http://tho-otto.de/crossmint.php#ping, and an older version from sparemint here: https://github.com/freemint/sparemint/b ... 8kmint.rpm

[mikro]

Yeah, there is always this fragile balance between having something user friendly and suddenly having a distro to maintain.

I've been considering adding ping many times, it's an useful tool. As for DHCP, for that you need more than just one executable, it needs also some scripts/configuration... I'd leave it to someone actually aiming for a full featured distro.

And of course, I'm all for including Jo Even's tools into FreeMiNT's tool collection, we provide some open source GUI apps in /opt/GEM already.

[joska]

I know that Joska was working on VanillaMint2 which may or may not have included these extras, I think he stopped because he could not find a lightweight memory alternative to Tos2Win.

No, I stopped because current MiNT kernels are no longer usable on 8MHz 68000 machines. The ST version was my main motivation for updating VanillaMiNT.

In it's current state, because it's been aging (version numbers) VanillaMint isn't as fit for purpose as it used to be.

Exactly what makes VanillaMiNT less usable now than when it was released?

If Joska doesn't intend to update it in the future, then perhaps he might consider allowing Freemint to use his handy GUI configuration apps in their snapshots? I think it would be a good idea.

That might happen, I'm currently not very motivated to work on MiNT-stuff (and haven't been for quite some time), and so far it doesn't look like that will improve. MiNT is moving in the opposite direction from what I like, and I don't have the time or skills to do anything about this myself.

[joska]

- the environment to start a shell from TosWin2 does not seem to be set up properly ("Start Shell" menu item is greyed out); would be great if this could be changed so that the included "SH.TTP" (which seems to be a version of BASH) can actually be used

That will probably not happen, a shell is out of scope for VanillaMiNT. You can always run the included shell, but then you'll discover that there's a lot of tools missing that will have to be added, and then there's even more stuff to maintain. VanillaMiNT is a plain GEM-based setup.

- it would be nice if some basic tools to test the network connectivity like ping and traceroute could be included; while the graphical tool to configure the network is nice, without tools to test the network it is next to impossible to verify if the setup it creates does actually work or not.

True, adding these would make sense.

Also the statement on https://atari.joska.no/VanillaMiNT/ that no drivers for ethernet adapters are included isn't correct, since there are actually drivers for the "Lance" based VME Ethernet cards and the Daynaport SCSILink included, but they are disabled by default. So maybe you could mention instead that if one of these Eternet adapters are used it can be enabled by changing the ending of the appropriate file from "XIX" to "XIF".

Or maybe finish the driver management GEM tool that I started on.

[stormy]

In it's current state, because it's been aging (version numbers) VanillaMint isn't as fit for purpose as it used to be.

Exactly what makes VanillaMiNT less usable now than when it was released?

Just version age and depreciation to do with driver development/support. Of course, VanillaMint can be manually updated, but that is kind of 'out of the scope' of who VanillaMint is intended for.

[mikro]

MiNT is moving in the opposite direction from what I like, and I don't have the time or skills to do anything about this myself.

Anything specific you'd like to point out, btw? FreeMiNT doesn't have any 'direction' for a good few years, if not a decade already. If there is a bug and someone fixes that bug (or add a new feature, like caching bitmaps on startup), that's the only direction I can think of right now to be honest. :)

I have even revived XaAES without Helmut's changes to please a few conservative users, there hardly has been more freedom what FreeMiNT can / should be than these days.

Plus there's been numerous cool additions / fixes for the USB stack for instance, most likely a reliable workaround has been found for the network instabilities, ... now it's really pleasure to use.

[joska]

Just version age and depreciation to do with driver development/support.

Good point for kernel modules, like the USB stuff. But the XIF interface has not been changed the last 20 years or so, so not a problem for network drivers.

Of course, VanillaMint can be manually updated, but that is kind of 'out of the scope' of who VanillaMint is intended for.

The problem is that once MiNT is installed the user can (and often will) do anything (s)he wants to the configuration and setup, and it's very hard to create an update system that preserves the user's custom setup. I have tried to make it as easy as possible by moving the configuration files out of the system folder, but updating the kernel/AES is still a manual procedure. Better documentation (for VanillaMiNT) would probably help.

[joska]

Anything specific you'd like to point out, btw? FreeMiNT doesn't have any 'direction' for a good few years, if not a decade already.

To be honest I don't feel good about complaining about this, as any work to MiNT/XaAES is done by people who does this as a hobby and thus should be allowed to do exactly what (s)he wants. Since I don't have the time or skills to contribute much myself I'm not really in a position to complain. If you're interested in my complaints and lack of motivation we should discuss this privately, send me a mail if you want to spend/waste any time on that

[stormy]

lol

[ThorstenOtto]

it's very hard to create an update system that preserves the user's custom setup.

That could maybe only be solved by splitting the scripts into ones that are provided by freemint, and ones that are local for the user, and maybe not present at all on a fresh install.
That should allow to overwrite the system scripts with an update, and leave the users scripts alone, where he can override anything he wants.

And yes, better documentation will always help, either in those scripts, or separately (however separate docs that are hidden in some sub-directory are rarely read by users


BTW, traceroute is now also available, either at http://tho-otto.de/crossmint.php#traceroute, or at http://tho-otto.de/download/rpm/RPMS/m6 ... 1.m68k.rpm (but that also needs a newer rpm)
It's basically the same version as the one from sparemint, recompiled with current mintlib. I also did a quick test, and it seems to work when i invoke it from within aranym:

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traceroute to 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
 1  o2.box (192.168.1.1)  9.999 ms  10.000 ms  9.999 ms
 2  loopback1.0003.acln.01.dus.de.net.telefonica.de (62.52.201.190)  9.999 ms  10.000 ms  9.999 ms
 3  ae5-0.0001.dbrx.01.dus.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.22.210)  9.999 ms  10.000 ms  9.999 ms
 4  ae9-0.0002.corx.01.dus.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.16.35)  29.999 ms  20.000 ms  19.999 ms
 5  ae5-0.0001.corx.01.off.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.0.5)  24.999 ms ae2-0.0005.corx.01.muc.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.7.49)  30.000 ms ae12-0.0002.corx.01.ham.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.0.0)  20.000 ms
 6  bundle-ether2.0001.dbrx.06.ham.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.14.29)  20.000 ms bundle-ether2.0001.dbrx.04.muc.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.2.225)  20.000 ms bundle-ether2.0001.dbrx.06.ham.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.14.29)  20.000 ms
 7  bundle-ether1.0001.prrx.04.muc.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.7.157)  20.000 ms ae0-0.0001.prrx.01.muc.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.13.83)  30.000 ms bundle-ether2.0004.prrx.02.fra.de.net.telefonica.de (62.53.8.189)  20.000 ms
 8  74.125.48.102 (74.125.48.102)  20.000 ms  20.000 ms 72.14.208.60 (72.14.208.60)  19.999 ms
 9  * * *
10  209.85.245.203 (209.85.245.203)  20.000 ms dns.google (8.8.8.8)  30.000 ms  30.000 ms