Generally about incompatibility

A section to cover all the different problems encountered by running game x on system y! Whether it's as simple as a non-STE compatible game through to h/drive installable games. Discuss them all in here.

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ppera

Generally about incompatibility

Post by ppera »

Little boredom here :D :

I will list some reasons why games not run on specific platform(s), without intention to be complete (as some problems are still not clarified) or to list them in some order by how frequent they are.

1: Game runs on machine with 512KB, but not on machines with more RAM. This is probably something stupidest possible, but is not so rare, unfortunately.
The reason is always bad programming. In most cases crackers are culprits, but happens by originals too.
Solution can be to try another crack, and more perspective: using one of small utils to set machine to act as has only 512K - for ST, STE. Get it here: http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.ph ... mu#p115386

2: TOS version related:

2.1: Game is written so that runs on fixed, low RAM locations (not relocatable code). As newer TOS versions reserve more RAM for system, game code will conflict with system, and crash is almost inevitable. Examples: Millennium 2.2, Sapiens.
In some cases game will give message about insufficient RAM at start. Even on machines with 4MB. But game checks actually is there enough free space between system and 512KB.
Possible solutions: running game from AUTO folder. Looking for adapted version. Using Hole.

2.2: Timer C stop problem. It happens on TOS 2.06 , 4.xx (Falcon) . Examples: Space Harrier, Falcon F16, FOTI.
Reason is that Atari changed TOS code by Trap calls, and system will stuck if timer C (200Hz) is stopped by regular Traps.
Solution is: using adapted versions where restart of Timer C is solved somehow. Or running lower TOS version in RAM.

2.3: Sometimes code runs well on some TOS version(s), but not on another one(s). It is mostly because of bad programming (even bugs sometimes), bad system function calls, jumps in ROM and similar.
Solutions: trying with another crack. Looking for patched version. Example: Predator.

3: Hardware related:
Mostly when try running ST(E) games on Falcon.

3.1: Different CPU in Falcon - Stack frame is different by interrupts and Traps. CPU cycles are different. There is cache in CPU. Used stack space is bigger.
Solutions: turning off code and/or data cache. Increasing stack space. Setting CPU clock to 8MHz.

3.2: Falcon uses PMMU table for normal work. It is placed at $700. If some game writes in that area it will crash. Solution is moving of PMMU table in unused RAM.

3.3: PSG shadow registers - Falcon will crash by long writes to PSG (YM) registers. Cure is setting of so called STE emulating bus mode. In some cases it will result with very bad sound, Then only correcting game code may help. Example: Princ of Persia.

3.4: Different video HW registers: screen disalign may happen by direct writing in video base registers. Solution is to use system calls by setting screen base, resolution. There are likely some other problems, as some games crash, freeze by certain points, what needs further investigation.


4. Special, mixed problems: As STE has palette of 4096 colors instead 512 by ST there may happen some problems because of that. Example is Defender of the Crown by which raiding stucks if run on STE. Cure was to correct palette by some pictures where were invalid 12-bit entries instead 9-bit ones. However, it was TOS version related too, since by older TOS versions game worked without stucking (Steem).

Here is one, little older, but very good Falcon compatibility list - we probably have no better so far...
http://www.ppest.org/atari/f_games.htm


to be continued...
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Klapauzius »

Here's another article on game incompatibility:

http://zakalwe.fi/~shd/amiga-cracking/agafix-v2.html

Yes, it's meant for the Amiga and many points are Amiga specific, but you can still find a few points that will also apply for the Atari world, like issues with the CPU caches, exception stack frames, etc.. :-)
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by ppera »

I hoped when started this thread that some people will add his own experiences, Klaz in first place :D
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by carmel_andrews »

I know that this will take some time, but if I could suggest that a group of forum members put together the definative what works and what doesn't work compatibility lists for menu and non menu games
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by beanz »

Hi,

Anyone know if PAL ST games will work fine on an NTSC Atari 520STFM (using the TV not a monitor). I know several other systems chop the bottom of the screen off.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Zodiac »

I've got a question regarding this:
I noticed that some game releases state not only that they need 1 MEG on the cover, but also list only the models that came with that amount of RAM (e.g Atari ST 1040 etc.)
As an example, see http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... _9761.html

Is there something that would prevent the early models (going back to the Atari 260, 520) from running these games even if RAM was upgraded? Aside from the issues mentioned before (TOS etc.)
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by AtariZoll »

Short answer is: no .
And what I see on cover of Knighs of the Sky is listing of regular models, + "1MEG required" . There is no mention that will not work on some 520 expanded to 1MB or more.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by AtariZoll »

After 6 years, time to add some things :D

3. Hardware related

3.4 Falcon and TT have different usage of Vfreq. ($FF820A) register - writing to it some value what is OK on ST, STE may kill video on TT or Falcon.

3.5 Reading Video pointer registers ($FF8205-9) on TT. Falcon is somehow slower and seems not reliable - probably because pipeline, PMMU. If SW using it for accurate syncing, it may freeze. I needed to mod code in some cases to make game work on TT< Falcon.

3.6 68030 CPU pipeline related. That CPU reads normally 3 instructions ahead, before execution. And if self-modding code writes in RAM area where they are located, that change will not go to CPU execution unit, so old state will be executed. Solution is to add some jump in that process, what will break pipeline, and force CPU to read actual RAM state. Examples: Voyager (lot of to correct), Infestation, Astro Marine Corps, Vroom, Maupiti Island, Parasol Stars (later 3 only in depacker) .

3.7 PSG port 14 - it is used in ST, STE only for floppy drive and side selection - 3 bits. Some additional bits are used in Mega STE and Falcon. SW should keep all bits 7-3 unchanged by floppy access. But it is not case always, and therefore some unwanted interrupt triggerings may happen on mega STE, what usually crashes. Or may kill IDE port on Falcon.

5. Regional limitations

Some SW is allowed to run only in specific regions. And how computer knows where it works ? By TOS language version or by video refresh rate (50 or 60 Hz) . So, SW (mostly games) may check TOS language (flag is in TOS header) or V. refresh rate. If matches not, it freezes or resets, usually without any message. Example: Star Wars. There is lot of ...


As carmel_andrews suggested, it would be useful to compose some list, database about all known incompatibilities in Atari SW. It should have SW title, opt. version # (if known), opt. region of release as descriptors of exact variant. Then concrete incompatibility(es) and possible exact problem description in short .
Something like:

Tracker : works only with TOS 1.00 UK/US - jumps in ROM used.

Maybe could add those fields to Atarimania database, and to currently under update GameBase ST :idea:
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Eero Tamminen »

ppera wrote: 2.3: Sometimes code runs well on some TOS version(s), but not on another one(s). It is mostly because of bad programming (even bugs sometimes), bad system function calls, jumps in ROM and similar.
Solutions: trying with another crack. Looking for patched version. Example: Predator.
Using undocumented, TOS-specific vectors. E.g. input handling in most STOS games, and input handling in Reservoir Gods' Falcon games. For former, one can use patched games. Latter is only an issue with EmuTOS because only TOS4 & EmuTOS support Falcons, and it can be worked around with this:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/mess ... d=26841274
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by AtariZoll »

Yes, input handling is one of worst coded parts in games. I saw many diverse incompatible, overcomplicated code. But it can be solved pretty much easy, in fact. Likely, there was not enough info, doc available in 1980-es about that, including IKBD chip programming.
STOS is one of examples how not to do it. But it has so called STOS fixers, which can "patch" executables to work in most TOS versions.
I did not deal with Reservoir Gods games. Don't think that much people using EmuTOS for gaming, especially not on real HW - actually, I would be surprised if anyone uses it :D

Funny thing is that even some games, which use direct HW access, so not using TOS calls fail on some TOS versions 8O
Heimdal has some graphic bugs if TOS is at $E00000 .
Then, there is region check in Star Raiders, what assumes that TOS is at $FC0000 - it crashes therefore on STE. "Nicest" thing is that it is published by Atari self :mrgreen:
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Eero Tamminen »

AtariZoll wrote:Don't think that much people using EmuTOS for gaming, especially not on real HW - actually, I would be surprised if anyone uses it :D
I don't think anyone uses it on original Atari HW, but on new FPGA based HW some might. Suska & MiST emulate original Atari. With Firebee using ColdFire CPU and EmuTOS not having m68k emulator like FireTOS has, EmuTOS is unlikely to be used with old games, only with new ColdFire builds of the games. :-)

Firebee has still too many issues that discussing its (non-GEM games) compatibility doesn't make much sense. Issues with e.g. accelerators for original Atari HW might be relevant though?
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by AtariZoll »

Old SW's compatibility with diverse accelerators, clones is special area. I really don't want to go in it. Focus here is on compatibility with regular Atari machines. It self is problematic enough, and still some things are not researched enough. With accelerators and clones often may happen that SW fails because high speed only. I'm sure that people owning such beasts don't care much for old ST games. They play games compiled specially for them, their OS.

There are things what can not be solved with some system routines - like existing trap for reading SR in user mode (what is priv. violation with 68030) in TOS 3.06, 4.0x (TT, Falcon)) . Stackframe and pipeline related incompatibility can be solved only with changing code of SW. And that's lot of tracing, testing.

I think that who want to run old SW with new HW should go Mist or Sushka way, or to use SW emulators on some faster, modern machine - and later can be done with small sized boxes too :D
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by TheMilford »

Great post. Just getting into ST. Got a 1040ST(f)... plan to upgrade to TOS 1.04 to better ustilize MIDI sequencing programs like Notator, Pro 24, etc. But would also like to play games like Sierra and SSI. any known compatibility issues?
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by ftovar »

I just read this post and it looks like there are so many reason for incompatibility. I just recently picked up Star Wars trilogy for the ST DOMARK version on Etsy from a UK vendor.

I am in the US and have a Mega ST 2 with 4 megs of Ram and TOS 1.4 with the elco HD 1.44 floppy disk drive. I also have a Falcon 030 with 14megs and I never bothered to check what TOS. Star Wars loads but stops after the option to select joystick or mouse on my ST or Falcon. Empire Strike Backs loads to the start up screen title then two bombs on the ST and on the Falcon it freezes. Return of the Jedi loads to the title screen on the ST with music and will not move beyond that. Won't even load on the Falcon. On the ST I cannot even see the files but on the Falcon I can. I tried to load with and without the hard drive and boot direct from the A drive with the HD off. same results. I also have Star Wars from Broderbund version and that loads up fine on the ST. I am using my SC1224 for the ST and a multisync monitor for the Falcon. Is there really a difference between the Boderbund version and Domark even though Tengen is the same programmer?

The ESTY vendor does not want to refund me even though they have a 30 day return policy written on their listing and they did not list "as is or no returns". He said I knew the risks but I want to see what I can do to get the games working 1st before I file a complaint.

So I am here to get some suggestions? In addition the vendor can always sell them to another collector in the UK right? Despite the roms being available on Atarimania. My other question does anyone have the Trilogy and using it on their actual hardware in the US? Do the ROMS work on an NTSC ST? Please advise if anyone who can help. Thank you
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Eero Tamminen »

EmuTOS documentation contains quite a few specific examples of what kind of problems programs can have: https://github.com/emutos/emutos/blob/m ... atible.txt

Except for the cases listed there, all programs should work under latest EmuTOS version(s).
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by simonsunnyboy »

EmuTOS compatibility improved over the years.
I can only suggest to report any issues to the project and in many cases developers will try to see if it is possible to make it work with EmuTOS aswell.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by ftovar »

simonsunnyboy wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:12 pm EmuTOS compatibility improved over the years.
I can only suggest to report any issues to the project and in many cases developers will try to see if it is possible to make it work with EmuTOS aswell.
I'm sorry were you replying to my post? I am not using an emulator. I am using the original ST software disk and ST hardware. I was unable to post pictures. However, I will look at the links provided. I assume I can DL and save them to the disks as long as I use an older version of Windows 95, 98 or XP with a floppy drive which I do have but will take some time as I lent that PC to my niece. Thank you for the reply.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by ijor »

ftovar wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:46 am I just read this post and it looks like there are so many reason for incompatibility. I just recently picked up Star Wars trilogy for the ST DOMARK version on Etsy from a UK vendor.

I am in the US and have a Mega ST 2 with 4 megs of Ram and TOS 1.4 with the elco HD 1.44 floppy disk drive ... Is there really a difference between the Boderbund version and Domark even though Tengen is the same programmer?
Yes, the actual game is the same, but different publishers sometimes use different loaders and copy protections. In this particular case, this is one of the very few ST releases that has region locking. The Domark release will refuse to run if it detects an US TOS.
So I am here to get some suggestions? In addition the vendor can always sell them to another collector in the UK right? Despite the roms being available on Atarimania. My other question does anyone have the Trilogy and using it on their actual hardware in the US? Do the ROMS work on an NTSC ST?
It seems the full trilogy was released only in Europe. There is a Broderbund US release, but for Star Wars only, not for the other two titles in the trilogy.

If you want to run the original trilogy in your computer the only option is to get an European TOS. You don't need to change the computer, just the TOS. There are even boards that let you switch between multiple TOS versions, so that you could, if you want, have both an US TOS and an UK TOS.

I didn't check, but it is very likely that the cracked version removed the region lock. That might be the easiest solution.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by ijor »

Eero Tamminen wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 2:48 pm EmuTOS documentation contains quite a few specific examples of what kind of problems programs can have: https://github.com/emutos/emutos/blob/m ... atible.txt

Except for the cases listed there, all programs should work under latest EmuTOS version(s).
The problem in this case it is not the TOS version, but the TOS country. I know you are having the best of the intentions, but not sure why you bring EmuTOS here at all, you are probably just confusing @ftovar.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by ftovar »

ijor wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:53 pm
ftovar wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:46 am I just read this post and it looks like there are so many reason for incompatibility. I just recently picked up Star Wars trilogy for the ST DOMARK version on Etsy from a UK vendor.

I am in the US and have a Mega ST 2 with 4 megs of Ram and TOS 1.4 with the elco HD 1.44 floppy disk drive ... Is there really a difference between the Boderbund version and Domark even though Tengen is the same programmer?
Yes, the actual game is the same, but different publishers sometimes use different loaders and copy protections. In this particular case, this is one of the very few ST releases that has region locking. The Domark release will refuse to run if it detects an US TOS.
So I am here to get some suggestions? In addition the vendor can always sell them to another collector in the UK right? Despite the roms being available on Atarimania. My other question does anyone have the Trilogy and using it on their actual hardware in the US? Do the ROMS work on an NTSC ST?
It seems the full trilogy was released only in Europe. There is a Broderbund US release, but for Star Wars only, not for the other two titles in the trilogy.

If you want to run the original trilogy in your computer the only option is to get an European TOS. You don't need to change the computer, just the TOS. There are even boards that let you switch between multiple TOS versions, so that you could, if you want, have both an US TOS and an UK TOS.

I didn't check, but it is very likely that the cracked version removed the region lock. That might be the easiest solution.
Thank you for the reply ijor. I wished I had asked this question in this forum before I purchased the Trilogy, but I did ask the vendor and he sent a link to Atari Age. I only saw that the games would work as long as we use an Atari monitor under a question if PAL version games would work with NTSC. I will show the vendor the screenshot of this message and see if he will refund. My friend is running an emulator on his Mac and he is having the same issues I am having but Empire Strikes Back does work with 512kb settings under ST and I think TOS 1.04 at 8mhz. When I asked him to emulate a Mega ST with 4MB of ram he had some issues.

As far as TOS switching I assume I need to modify my motherboard to have both TOS Roms installed? Can you provide me with a link so I can read more on this modification?


Thank you
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Zippy »

If it's the budget Star Wars Trilogy release I actually put that together for Domark back in the early 90's. I still have the master disk so I'll get it imaged and uploaded here.

IIRC there was no copy protection on any of the original copies they supplied of the 3 games, so I just needed to drag them all onto a single disk and create a small text menu for the front end.

Not sure about TOS version checking but I'll have a look once I get it imaged.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Zippy »

OK here's the original disk image I sent to Domark, seems to work OK in Steem and on my MegaST.

Had a quick look and actually there was some hacking done and I packed main files with PackIce, looks like Empire Strikes back was filed/packed and I see some text in the loader saying "Hacked and Packed 31/08/90" :D

So not sure if this will be the same version you have or not.

OK I've tried it in Steem with US TOS and Empire Strikes back works, Return of the Jedi won't go past the title screen and Star Wars freezes as game starts. For Return of the Jedi it's a 50/60hz problem, if you set to 50hz before running it then it works OK with the US TOS, but even at 50hz Star Wars is still freezing.

I used this 50/60hz toggle program to get Return of the Jedi working, then just ran the RETURN.PRG from desktop.
https://www.atarimania.com/pgesoft.awp?version=33144

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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by SyntaxError »

i seem to notice illegal instructions more on using mister fpga with original TOS than i do on hatari but less when i use older stuff, .st floppies from the 1980s tend to run under tos 1(.00) /st - 1.62 ST/e but it seems to do with memory config too when put at more than 14mb most stuff doesnt work so i assume thats an fpga/core or emulator specific issue, sadly i havent had a real st and ste since i was 17-18 so i cant check anything "for real" i also wouldnt know what would go for a proper clone today, my closest i think is the mister using actual original tos images
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by PeterS »

This might be useful info to the guys working on Vampire V4SA.

If games have so many incompatibilities on Atari hardware they are going to struggle to get everything working on the V4.
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Re: Generally about incompatibility

Post by Eero Tamminen »

ftovar wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:44 pm I'm sorry were you replying to my post? I am not using an emulator.
No, it was update to nearly decade older earlier posts on EmuTOS. I.e. just on the "Generally about incompability" subject.

Sorry for confusion, I should have been clearer on that!

PS. People are nowadays using EmuTOS also on real HW, as it fixes many bugs in older TOS versions.
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