Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

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Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by techie_alison »

Hello,

Does anyone have any experience or knowledge regarding this drive please? I'm trying to support someone who is try to hook it up to their ST, suffice to say that I don't have it in front of me nor am familiar with the precise layout of the PCB.

I've found this PDF so far; http://www.alphamicro.com/dss10/50903A03.pdf , yet it's still not playing ball.

Any knowledge regarding this specific drive would be greatly appreciated.

With thanks,

Alison
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by Rat boy »

Is there a specific issue Alison that needs resolving, or general specs or what?

Seems to be an issue with termination, even MS recognise..see:-

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/119863

Bit more info (specs and config etc..<scroll down screen in link>)

http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives ... -FAST.html

Hope this helps!
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by techie_alison »

Hi Ratboy,

Thanks for that, brilliant. It all helps.

The drive simply isn't being recognised. Now as mentioned I don't have it in front of me, else I'd be hooking it up to an analyser. :D
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by ijor »

Hi Aly,
techie_alison wrote:The drive simply isn't being recognised.
Not recognised with which host adapter? The question is relevant because this drive doesn't seem to have a parity disable jumper. So it won't work with host adapters that don't support parity.

Assuming that is the problem, there might be a fix if the user is able to connect it to a PC. IIRC, parity can be disabled in those drives by software (the setting is non-volatile, stored in Eeprom).
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by ppera »

I have couple Quantum SCSI drives, and no parity disabling on them. Assuming that it is common by... Especially if no parity dis. jumper :D
So, you need to make parity generator on adapter (easy), or getting some other SCSI drive, for instance IBM.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by techie_alison »

Heyo guys,

Thanks for replying. :D I'm being sent the drive itself next week so will have it in front of me.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by techie_alison »

As a follow up to this thread.

The Quantum range of drives manufactured in the mid-90s are relatively well documented; Fireball, Empire etc. They all seem to suffer from firmware issues which appear on other systems too.

In the case of the Atari ST, the problem is two fold. Firstly; TOS does not support Initiator Indentification which is required by the later Quantum drives. And furthermore secondly; The Quantums have an issue whereby they miss bus signals if they are faster than 8Mhz (the SCSI standard is 10Mhz).

There's quite a bit about this out there by searching with keywords like; Quantum 1080s firmware.

Referring to USENET and comp.sys.atari.st these issues are said to affect all of the Atari range right up to the TT. Such that even if you could communicate with the drive (you can fire off diagnostic commands with the ICD tools), without Initiator ID, the drive will NEVER boot or be recognised.

The analyser here can communicate with the drive successfully. The drive in itself is not faulty, although it's firmware and original design are flawed. There were some server RAID arrays that would use the drives, and the drives would just decide to power themselves down. Also issues with the Adaptec 2940 controllers.

So the upshoot of this mail being; avoid the Quantum 1080s SCSI drives. They won't work with Ataris.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by bullis1 »

techie_alison wrote:So the upshoot of this mail being; avoid the Quantum 1080s SCSI drives. They won't work with Ataris.
Thanks a lot for doing this research. I was planning on buying a SCSI drive or two for use with my Atari and I've seen a few Quantum drives around locally.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by techie_alison »

Other models *may* work. But you'd need to research it thoroughly. Things like parity, firmware, and reports on usenet. The largest Quantum that I have here that works is a 40Mbyte.

I've found the IBMs to be pretty good, have a couple of 4GB ones here with ICD Links. Some of the Seagates seem ok too, a 2GB one here. Once you go past the 4GBs they start to move towards the 68-pin drives.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by ijor »

Hi Aly,
techie_alison wrote:In the case of the Atari ST, the problem is two fold. Firstly; TOS does not support Initiator Indentification which is required by the later Quantum drives.
Support for SCSI initiator Id is not a TOS issue, it depends on the host adapter. The Link 9X (but not the ICD Link I-II) fully support initiator ID. So they should work fine with the Quantum (at least at the extent of the Initiator Id issue).

I'm not very familiar with the TT & Falcon SCSI, but I'm pretty sure the National SCSI controller does support Initiator Id as well.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by techie_alison »

All I know is that the customer bought the drive to have something upgraded and that it wasn't recognised. Seeing as we don't have any Link 9x, and the customer isn't likely to be getting one anytime soon, the advice stands. This is the first time I've encountered this issue, and frankly I'm quite surprised at the amount of incompatabilities and problems the old Quantum SCSI drives created.

Only works at 8Mhz on a standard than runs at 10Mhz... That's just the beginning.

I'm only quoting Uwe.
Uwe Seimet wrote: Chris Krowchuk wrote:
> Will Link96 allow you to boot from an arbitrated drive? I thought that


Yes, it will. It's necessary to make a difference here between bus
arbitration and initiator identification. What some drives (e. g.
Quantum Fireball) need is initiator identification. This means the
computer must have a unique SCSI ID. On the TT and Falcon this ID is
provided by some hard disk drivers (CBHD, HuSHI, HDDRIVER, concerning
ICD I don't know). On the ST (or for the TTs ACSI bus) initiator
identification can't be supplied by software. You need special hardware
for this and the only host adapter that works in this case is the
LINK96.
Bus arbitration is even more advanced than initiator identification and
is supported at least by CBHD, HuSHI, HDDRIVER. You need bus arbitration
if you want to share a SCSI drive (or another SCSI peripheral) with
several computers. Contrary to initiator identification bus arbitration
is not possible with an ST, i. e. the LINK96 can only support initiator
identification, not bus arbitration. But fortunately initiator
identification is what most users need and what satisfies Quantum
Fireball SCSI drives and some others. You can expect that more and more
new SCSI drives will require initiator identification.


> that it was not possible to boot from an arbitrated drive because TOS
> would not allow it and that a driver could not fix this problem. Does
> link96 with HD Driver solve this issue once and for all?


Yes, but only for drives connect to the ACSI bus. In this case not the
hard disk driver is responsible for supplying a SCSI ID, the LINK96 does
it on its own. Because for ACSI the LINK96 supports initiator
identification on its own TOS is able to read the root sector of any
drive and thus can boot from any drive. With initiator identification
provided by the hard disk driver (TT and Falcon SCSI) TOS cannot read
the root sector because TOS has its won SCSI routines and those do not
support initiator identification. This means that drives like the
Quantum Fireball are only recognized _after_ a driver with initiator
identification support was loaded.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by ijor »

Hi Aly,
techie_alison wrote:All I know is that the customer bought the drive to have something upgraded and that it wasn't recognised. Seeing as we don't have any Link 9x, and the customer isn't likely to be getting one anytime soon, the advice stands.
I'm not arguing about the advice. I'm saying that (for ST & STe) it is not a TOS issue, it is a host adapter issue. So as long as the host adapter support Initiator Id, then this shouldn't be a problem. The advice still stands because most people don't have the Link 9x and it is really hard to find.
I'm only quoting Uwe.
Uwe is confirming what I am saying (again, regarding ST & STe).

However, regarding Falcon & TT, he is further saying that it is a TOS issue (but again, only in Falcon & TT). You then can still use SCSI drives that require Initiator Id, but you cannot boot from them (because you can't use those drives until loading a driver).
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by techie_alison »

On another note. ;-)

I'm wondering if the LVD 68-pin drives can be used with a suitable adapter, as there's loads of them about. Have been looking through the specs of the various drives on eBay.

I don't know how to configure the firmware for no-parity though? I'm assuming it needs a configuration utility from the manufacturers?
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by jd »

techie_alison wrote:On another note. ;-)

I'm wondering if the LVD 68-pin drives can be used with a suitable adapter, as there's loads of them about. Have been looking through the specs of the various drives on eBay.

I don't know how to configure the firmware for no-parity though? I'm assuming it needs a configuration utility from the manufacturers?
You do this through DOS i'm sure. Although don't some old drives you actually buy with parity disabled depending on the model code and that's it, it's hard coded.

Other prodrive drives do have the parity jumper though.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by PaulB »

I just found this text from Uwe on the Notator.Org site:
Question#4-ANyone know of a list of Manufacturers of Atari compatible
> scsi II drives? (I just bought an IBM 2.1 Gig scsi II fast-wide that
> won't be recognized by my ICD adapter)

Any SCSI-II or SCSI-III drive can be connected to the Atari. Note,
however, that you need an adapter (16 to 8 bit) if you want to connect
one of the current UW/160 drives that have an 16 bit SCSI bus. This
adapter is nothing specific to the Atari. Also note that some drives may
require initiator identification and thus require a LINK96 adapter. But
as far as I know this is only required for some Quantum drives.

Question#5-Is it possible to disable parity checking with the ICD drivers
> through software?

No. The only drives where you can switch parity off by software are
Quantum drives. You need special software for doing this, which is
included in HDDRIVER. But even with these drives and the right software
you have to connect your drive to an Atari that supports parity in order
to reconfigure the drive. With a host adapter not supporting parity you
cannot do this because the precondition for the drive to be accessible
with this adapter is that parity is already switched off.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Uwe Seimet
http://www.seimet.de
I thought I'd seen a parity off function in HdDriver. Although to switch it off you'll need a Falcon or TT to mount the Quantum drive then disable the parity check, then it can be used with a normal ST.

More info here: http://www.notator.org/contributions/zip_info2.txt
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by ijor »

techie_alison wrote:I'm wondering if the LVD 68-pin drives can be used with a suitable adapter...
Yes, it should work.
I don't know how to configure the firmware for no-parity though? I'm assuming it needs a configuration utility from the manufacturers?
Good question. I don't know/remember, because personally I never had to do it.

It is possible that it would require a plain DOS boot with a DOS based Quantum utility. I don't know.

It is however possible, that you could do it with any SCSI diag utility, including the one one provided in ICD-Pro. But then you might need to know the exact format of the (disable parity) command, and send it "manually" with those utils.
PaulB wrote:I thought I'd seen a parity off function in HdDriver. Although to switch it off you'll need a Falcon or TT to mount the Quantum drive then disable the parity check, then it can be used with a normal ST.
Ah, interesting. I didn't know HDDriver had it. But you don't need a Falcon or TT. All you need is a host adapter that supports parity (most ICD ones do).
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by jd »

ijor wrote:
Ah, interesting. I didn't know HDDriver had it. But you don't need a Falcon or TT. All you need is a host adapter that supports parity (most ICD ones do).
Be easier buying a TT or Falcon than an ICD Link, I still want one......HINT, HINT :D

Your right with the other ICD boards though and not as hard to find.
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Re: Quantum Prodrive 1080s Empire SCSI Drive

Post by jd »

ijor wrote:
Ah, interesting. I didn't know HDDriver had it. But you don't need a Falcon or TT. All you need is a host adapter that supports parity (most ICD ones do).
Be easier buying a TT or Falcon than an ICD Link, I still want an ICD Link......HINT, HINT :D

Your right with the other ICD boards though and not as hard to find.
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