VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

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czietz
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by czietz »

I'm skeptical that one would be able to find a systematic dependency on single a chip, i.e., a case where one could say: chip type "x" is bad, whereas chip type "y" is good. This might just as well be a random variation between different systems. For example, even if you have the same type of GAL and it is programmed the same, individual chips will still have different timings, due to process spread during production, aging, and even temperature.

Note that ‒ with no way of reproducing the problem in the first place ‒ I can only speculate, based on the fact that I deal with such situations almost every day. As long as I don't have an affected system, please take my words as hypotheses, not as facts.
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

I always only test with the three nova drivers in the auto folder and only with xcontrol.acc, otherwise nothing.

Does anyone have an idea what the problem could be?
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by SteveBagley »

Well if MagiC is bus erroring then the CPU is driving AS low and nothing is responding, so the TTSCU generates a bus error after 256 clock cycles (from my reading of the schematics earlier today, the COMBO/GSTMCU doesn't generate the bus errors on the Mega -- in fact, it's bus error pin is pulled high). I suspect you are getting a similar bus error on the other platforms too…

It'd be interesting to know what address causes that bus error -- I wonder what would happen if you ran a bare system with AMON (from Devpac) installed. Hopefully, itd catch the error and show where it crashed… If not, do you have access to a logic analyser? Capturing AS, A23–A20, DTACK and BERR would also show enough to be useful… (and would be in the capabilities of the cheap analysers Amazon sell…)

Steve
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by Robbizz »

For a few days now I've been thinking about making a program (I think in C) that remains a resident of the MSTE and that writes information about the Floppy, ACSI, DMA registers and interested addresses (if anyone is aware of all the addresses used for each category, is welcome), in a log file. Naturally, given the nature of the problem, I should set a menu (perhaps using .ACC) to give the user the possibility to specify the drive where to write that log file (personally I also use NetUSBee where the problem does not appear). In this way, perhaps, we can understand whether the problem is actually software. Do you think this is a good idea?
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

I use TEMPLMON Programm ...

tmon1.jpg

... at the moment the system freeze TEMPLMON screen come up. Test with only the Nova driver and delete a single File from Floppy.

(I'm not an expert and for further work with the program I need help and instructions for dummies ...)
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by SteveBagley »

It looks the address causing the bus error is definitely in the VME space (0xC74572), and the program counter is in RAM (0x31a6e). The instruction (0x20Da) is a plain move.l (a2)+,(a0)+, which points to the graphics driver crashing… If it was the Desktop, I'd expect the PC to be in ROM and it's unlikely to be in the hard drive software since you are deleting from floppy.

The question is, why is the adapter failing to generate DTACK for a VME memory address? Are the GALs rom equations about?

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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

I assume the GAL is not the problem because in several MegaSTE, Atari TT everything works without any problems. It also has nothing to do with the OGFA GAL because the same error occurs with an original old Nova VME adapter and its old original GAL's.

I deleted the file from the diskette via the desktop by move the Mouse.
Last edited by frank.lukas on Thu Feb 29, 2024 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

SteveBagley wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:13 pm ... question is, why is the adapter failing to generate DTACK for a VME memory address? Are the GALs rom equations about?
If these thoughts are correct ...

... maybe Idek can build a GAL that will work ?


Wait
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by Idek Tramielski »

frank.lukas wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:10 am I use TEMPLMON Programm ...


tmon1.jpg


... at the moment the system freeze TEMPLMON screen come up. Test with only the Nova driver and delete a single File from Floppy.

(I'm not an expert and for further work with the program I need help and instructions for dummies ...)
Does the bus error always happen at the same address?
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

Auto folder = Nova driver only plus TempleMon



FDD Write
fdd_write.jpg

FDD Delete
fdd_delete.jpg

ACSI HDD Write
acsi_write.jpg


ACSI HDD Delete
acsi_delete.jpg
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

... multiple runs by ACSI HDD for example. Always different ...

2. run delete = Bus Error at 00C781CE SSP=00002F76 the rest are the same

2. run write = Bus Error at 00C795D6 SSP 00002F42 the rest are the same
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by Idek Tramielski »

Today I was able to replicate the issue on my MegaSTE with ET4000 card. After trying out several different things, I reverted from the OGFA Gal to the original GAL and the problem was gone. Frank Lukas was also able to confirm this with his MegaSTE.

I attached two GAL files here and hope that this will solve the issue for now.
I assume that the authors of the OGFA GAL will also look into this problem and hopefully find a solution for OGFA users.

SUPER_SE.JED for original Nova adapters and clones (without modification)
SUPERSEZ.JED for newer Nova adapters clones (with AM patch)

both GALs are for ET4000 cards only

Please report your test results back here.
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by mikro »

Idek Tramielski wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 4:25 pm Today I was able to replicate the issue on my MegaSTE with ET4000 card. After trying out several different things, I reverted from the OGFA Gal to the original GAL and the problem was gone. Frank Lukas was also able to confirm this with his MegaSTE.
How does this compare to Frank's earlier statement?
frank.lukas wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:03 pm I assume the GAL is not the problem because in several MegaSTE, Atari TT everything works without any problems. It also has nothing to do with the OGFA GAL because the same error occurs with an original old Nova VME adapter and its old original GAL's.
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by czietz »

Frank previously had confirmed to me that he could reproduce the problem with an original Nova adapter with Super_SE GAL. So, unless we get a clarification in this matter, I like to put into question the statement that the OGFA GAL is the root cause.
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

I've been wrong many times before so robbiz and paoloferr should the new GAL from Idek test out ...
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by Robbizz »

Hi Frank, where can I download the new GAL?
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

... at the last post from Idek.

viewtopic.php?p=460581#p460581


The SUPERSEZ.JED is the right one to replace the OGFA GAL
Last edited by frank.lukas on Fri Mar 22, 2024 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by 12MHz »

SteveBagley wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 1:13 pm The question is, why is the adapter failing to generate DTACK for a VME memory address? Are the GALs rom equations about?

Steve
Hi guys,

the difference between the OGFA-GAL and the SUPERSE.JED (attached in a comment from Idek) is the generation of /DTACK. The OGFA GAL waits for the graphics card to supply the IORDY signal. The GAL SUPERSE.JED does not do this!

For your question, Steve, this means that the graphics card may not respond. The result is that the graphics card and adapter do not supply /DTACK because IORDY was not previously activated. This results in a bus error.

The question now is, why does the graphics card not respond to the address range? One possible answer would be that the signals from the graphics card (IORDY) may not be recognized/detected correctly by the graphics card. Or the address range from the point of view of the Atari mainboard (0xC74572) is not correctly created on the VME bus and the graphics card may not be addressed at all. Both would lead to a bus error.

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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by Idek Tramielski »

Thanks for this explanation Robert. Let's see if the SUPER_SE GAL shows the same behavior for other users as it did for me and Frank.
As I said before, my hardware knowledge is limited and I can only report my observations and ask other users to confirm the behavior. It is not my intention to say bad things about the OGFA GAL, I use it as standard GAL myself.
I am confident that the cause will be found and the problem fixed, even if the GAL is not the root cause.
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Re: Adattatore da VME a ISA per Mega STE

Post by Robbizz »

I tried the new GAL (SUPERSE.JED) and that annoying system freeze no longer occurs if I delete or write on HD or Floppy...
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

... fine, so it looks like the problem is solved.

It would be nice to have a new version of the OGFA GAL so there is only one GAL for everything again.

The only exception is the special GAL for operating a 2MB MACH64 in the Atari Mega STE
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by czietz »

frank.lukas wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:44 pm ... fine, so it looks like the problem is solved.
Sorry, but I need to ask again: How come that we have had multiple reports in the past (including from you!) where the SUPER_SE GAL did not solve the problem? Before declaring the case closed, we need an explanation for those previous observations.
frank.lukas wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:44 pm It would be nice to have a new version of the OGFA GAL so there is only one GAL for everything again.
Well, it would be nice if one of the OGFA GAL developers was able to reproduce the problem in the first place. But none of its developers (incl. me) is affected. To remind you: My MegaSTE is one of those machines that run absolutely fine with the OGFA GAL. So is Robert's MegaSTE. How should we fix a problem that we cannot even reproduce?
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

czietz wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:01 pm Sorry, but I need to ask again: How come that we have had multiple reports in the past (including from you!) where the SUPER_SE GAL did not solve the problem? Before declaring the case closed, we need an explanation for those previous observations.
I'm a chaos guy and a very bad tester...

I don't have an original Nova VME adapter and I had only one that has the OGFA patches and I built back one to original Nova VME and most likely made mistakes. And I also have many of the same JED GAL files on my HDD, some are most likely defective. I have no idea ...!

Just complete chaos.



I have a good and a bad Mainboard so I can send my bad Atari Mega STE Mainboard to you, if you like ...
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by 12MHz »

frank.lukas wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:44 pm It would be nice to have a new version of the OGFA GAL so there is only one GAL for everything again.
Hello Frank,

I understand your call to get a revised OGFA-GAL.

Initially, there are only assumptions as to why the anomaly occurs. See also my comment about the IORDY signal. First of all, it must be reproducible for the people who were involved in the OGFA-GAL development. There is no solution before that.

I would also like to point out that it has not necessarily been proven that the OGFA-GAL causes this freezing on the screen. So far, this is only a hypothesis on your part.

Another problem, however, is that the GSTMCU sends a /DTACK in the address range 0xD00000 - 0xD7FFFF during read access. Depending on the address decoding for the graphics card in the VME bus, this can also be a hindrance. This is also only a theory and has not yet been proven.

Idek and a developer of the OGFA-GAL are currently investigating the case and trying to find the cause.

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Robert
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Re: VME to ISA adapter for Mega STE

Post by frank.lukas »

I wish the best to find the problem

Previously it was no problem to use a special GAL for every type of graphics card. The OGFA GAL is nice because you only need one for everything.
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