PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by push2fit »

This one is in one of my Ataris:

1040STF C070789-001 Rev.B
1040STF_C070789-001_Rev.B.jpg
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by push2fit »

Here Two others:
1040STF_C103175_Rev.1(.0).jpg
1040STF C103175 Rev.1(.0)
1040STF_C070859-001_Rev.jpg
1040STF C070859-001 Rev.??

Hope, it helps.
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by insanity »

Thanks push2fit, added to:

http://www.atari-forum.com/wiki/index.p ... _revisions

As always... Anyone else?

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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by Decky »

Here is a photo my my motherboard before I done a TOS 2.06 upgrade
Image
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by insanity »

Cheers Decky, have added it:

http://www.atari-forum.com/wiki/index.p ... _revisions

Anymore?

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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by Frank B »

Here's one of my STEs. I don't think we have a picture of this type yet. It has the integrated blitter and square DMA chip.
The machine was in a hell of a state when I bought it on ebay but simbo brought it back to life! :)
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by insanity »

Frank B wrote:Here's one of my STEs. I don't think we have a picture of this type yet. It has the integrated blitter and square DMA chip.
The machine was in a hell of a state when I bought it on ebay but simbo brought it back to life! :)
Have added this Frank... but can't make out the number, I assume a 'C' is hidden under that component -
is it CA401177 - this right?

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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR ST

Post by simbo »

yes is always CA revisions of board

or C^x. for chips ... ^ = other than

C seems to be ataris theme :coffe:
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by jokker »

Atari 520ST C07115 Rev 2
Image

Atar Mega ST2 C100167-001 Rev 5.0
Image
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

Hello chaps.

One more for your collection - I think you already have one heavily modded, this is original and a flash-less picture resized until it was just under the 300K limit:
Image
PAL 520STFM, TOS 1.02, purchased 12/86 with single-sided internal drive.

I'll post one of my (very late, 4Q 88, well after some of the later boards were in use) C070789 rev D at some point soon too.

Bit of a request: I've a bit of a project going on, trying to work out some details about the various hardware revisions. These pics have supplied some really useful data, but the text on the chips is really hard to read on lots of them and with the Shifter Faraday cages usually shut I can't get the Shifter IDs or crystal freqs (and to get the latter a 300K pic is rarely sufficient). I have already found one crystal freq not mentioned on any of the schematics, though.

If anyone who posted a compressed small pic or with the Shifter box shut wanted to post one a bit bigger with the Shifter box open and maybe the retaining clips removed from the custom chips I'd be a happy man (personally I'm not fussed about the 300K limit; that 900K 1040STF picture on the wiki is fantastic, exactly what I'm looking for). If they've been in your posession since day 1, I'd also appreciate any data on the purchase date, territory and (if never changed) ROM version.
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

Double post, I'm a numpty.
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

ppera wrote:This may help about knowing diverse revisions:
Hi there ppera. (since I can't PM, this will have to go here...)

You posted a couple of pictures of early 520STM revisions in this thread. I've a bit of a project going on with the various revisions of the ST hardware, and I noticed the Glue on these two 520STMs is a slightly different rev (-38 instead of -38A) compared to the various later STF/FM machines.

Did you have either or both of these machines? If so, do you know of any differences in behaviour between this particular model and others? In particular, I'm interested to determine which Glue revision changed the PAL top border timing from early to late. The even earlier ST in this thread has a different Glue revision (-20) and so it might be that one, but I'm looking to rule the -38 in or out if I can.

Glad of any info you (or anyone else) can offer me.

Cheers
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by insanity »

jokker and Dio,

Have added your motherboards to the wiki - Thanks!

Dio,

Ppera left the forum years back, so I would expect any reply - Sorry!

Cheers!

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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

OK, cheers.
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

You've put the wrong MB ID in the left column for mine :) .
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by wongck »

insanity wrote: Ppera left the forum years back, so I would expect any reply - Sorry!
But SofiST may make a reply :wink:
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by wongck »

Edit:
duh... Hey double post as well & no delete post button.
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by DarkLord »

Hadn't seen too much STacy stuff so here is my STacy's motherboard, with the
internal P/S and TOS ROM/memory board still plugged in. You can also see a
few of the wires from the HD floppy drive mod I'm working on.

This motherboard is marked:

STACY MAIN
C103999 - 001 Rev. B
P9070009.JPG
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by ijor »

Dio wrote:In particular, I'm interested to determine which Glue revision changed the PAL top border timing from early to late. The even earlier ST in this thread has a different Glue revision (-20) and so it might be that one, but I'm looking to rule the -38 in or out if I can.
I believe this changed between GLUE -38 and -38A. But I'm not so familiar with GLUE -20 revision. Those -20 parts are quite rare and even strange.

If somebody has any of those -20 revision chips, and is willing to part them for reverse engineering purposes, please drop me a PM.
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

Thanks - I've just aquired an old STM that should have a -38 chip in so I shall check that and report back.

I've already asked Jokker the exact same question on those -20s :) . Looking at that old machine of his with the -20 and the kludge on the ras / cas lines it looks like some patches might be needed though...

Because all the chips turned from -20 to -38 at the same time (and it's almost impossible that they all needed the same number of design revisions) it seems unlikely that suffix is a pure revision number, one guess would be that the -20 denotes 'preproduction' and -38 'production', or there's maybe something more subtle, like a change of silicon process. It may be that the second code (e.g PH023-020 on the DMA) denotes the revision, but they've been harder to read on the pictures so far (hence my desire to see more big pics with the Faraday cage open).

One of the things that's intriguing me most is that given the reported difficulties making border removals work on a very wide range of STs - always allegedly because Atari made lots of changes to Glue, MMU and Shifter - there seem to be very few revisions. There's some evidence for concluding that the actual chip logic didn't change from the STFM through to the advent of the STE.

My current theory is that the major differences in timing are to do with the large different master crystals and the presence or absence of the clock nudger - there are far more varieties there than there are in the custom chips.

(Problem is, to investigate that properly I need to start looking at things like getting STs from the US with the NTSC crystals. Ho hum...)
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by ijor »

Hi Dio,
Dio wrote:Looking at that old machine of his with the -20 and the kludge on the ras / cas lines it looks like some patches might be needed though...
That is not a problem. If you happen find any of the -20 chips, I would take care of them.
Because all the chips turned from -20 to -38 at the same time (and it's almost impossible that they all needed the same number of design revisions) it seems unlikely that suffix is a pure revision number ...
It is a revision code, not exactly a consecutive number. Why they used -20, and then they sort of "jumped" to -38, I have no idea. But it doesn't suprise so much, I've seen other cases like this. It is possible that there is a process difference. But again, I can't say too much about those "-20" chips.
One of the things that's intriguing me most is that given the reported difficulties making border removals work on a very wide range of STs - always allegedly because Atari made lots of changes to Glue, MMU and Shifter - there seem to be very few revisions. ... My current theory is that the major differences in timing are to do with the large different master crystals and the presence or absence of the clock nudger
I agree that there aren't so many versions of the chipset. I was saying something similar long ago. I think the main problem related to overscan coding was wake-ups. Not only that the different wakeups introduce more timing variations, the whole thing wasn't well understood (it was actually barely known) at the time. Main clock frequency is a minor issue. But yes, we know that some demos break on some (mostly rare ones) crystals. Not sure what you mean by "clock nudger" ?
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by jokker »

I noticed the discussion and figured I'd reply to here...

I still have those chips Dio and I can send them to you if want to check them out. I certainly have no issues contributing back to this community!

Just PM me an address and I can mail them off (and package them up safely!)

I have enough spare ST's that I can get by without having the spares at all. Plus if they serve the greater good as a research tool, heck I'm all for it.

Guess I'd better take photo's of the rest of my ST's someday soon. Got another 520 modded to 1meg, a 1040, 2 more Mega ST4's and a Mega STE.
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

ijor wrote:I agree that there aren't so many versions of the chipset. I was saying something similar long ago. I think the main problem related to overscan coding was wake-ups. Not only that the different wakeups introduce more timing variations, the whole thing wasn't well understood (it was actually barely known) at the time. Main clock frequency is a minor issue. But yes, we know that some demos break on some (mostly rare ones) crystals. Not sure what you mean by "clock nudger" ?
The clock nudger is the circuit present on STMs that tweaks the master clock based on the colour clock. I'm certain that it's purpose is to create a phase relation with the colour clock to avoid the dot crawl issue that affected the Spectrum (it used a different crystal for the colour clock and master clock, which is prohibited by the PAL / NTSC standards). I'm not exactly certain how it works, though, and I'm still investigating if it produces any detectable behaviour change in the system.

Hence also the NTSC STE's relatively large clock frequency jump, because they could save some money by making the master crystal 9 times that of the colour clock and eliminating the nudger. (I think you postulated in the past that the big clock frequency change explains the "MFP latency change" that the Alive overscan document suggests, I completely agree with you there).

If there's anyone who understands the 'nudger' circuit very well or is an electronics expert I'd love to see a good writeup. I'm only a dabbler at the wires and transistors level and I even then haven't been able to investigate it in detail yet (I only have a logic analyser rather than a full scope).

I in turn are slightly confused by the use of the term "wake-ups" - what do you mean by those?
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

jokker wrote:I still have those chips Dio and I can send them to you if want to check them out. I certainly have no issues contributing back to this community!

Just PM me an address and I can mail them off (and package them up safely!)
You sir are a gent. I'm not sure if it's more valuable for you to send them to ijor or myself though. It is probably worth multiple people having a look in order that we can cross-check our conclusions?
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Re: PLEASE POST A CLEAN <=300K PIC IN JPG THE INSIDE OF YOUR

Post by Dio »

Had a think about this overnight. I'm also very interested in that early motherboard in order to work out what the kludge is and hence if it's required for the early chip.

Would it be possible for me to have the motherboard & chips, and I can then have a look at them and pass either just the chips or the board too onto ijor later?

I would be happy to put up some money as well as postage costs. And I don't know if the ST scene has completionist collectors, but one could value it highly - so I'd also be quite clear that it won't be sold on.
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