Coordination for/when making Pastis

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SofiST
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by SofiST »

nativ wrote:Can you convert Pasti to MSA / Msa to Pasti?
I have a large hard drive on the Falcon, which just makes things easier!
I guess I can set up LittleNet any way and jump them over.
Why no Falcon compatible?
Pasti is made because ST and MSA (+ STT) formats were not able to store all infos required by copyprotected disks. So, answer is no, generally. But, if STX is made from regular (not copyprotected) floppy, then is is possible. Actually, there is a lot of unnecessary made STX images, when ST or MSA would be perfect, plus good for writing back to real floppies. Examples: Carrier Command, F1 GP (Microprose) etc...

Not Falcon compatible because of timing, I guess. Different CPU means different execution times, so even at 8MHz Falcon will not act same.
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by nativ »

SofiST wrote:
nativ wrote:Can you convert Pasti to MSA / Msa to Pasti?
I have a large hard drive on the Falcon, which just makes things easier!
I guess I can set up LittleNet any way and jump them over.
Why no Falcon compatible?
Pasti is made because ST and MSA (+ STT) formats were not able to store all infos required by copyprotected disks. So, answer is no, generally. But, if STX is made from regular (not copyprotected) floppy, then is is possible. Actually, there is a lot of unnecessary made STX images, when ST or MSA would be perfect, plus good for writing back to real floppies. Examples: Carrier Command, F1 GP (Microprose) etc...

Not Falcon compatible because of timing, I guess. Different CPU means different execution times, so even at 8MHz Falcon will not act same.
I guess? Backward solves a lot of the issues, perhaps I will try running PASTI under backward! LoL :D
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by advfan »

To Maartau: Yes, I did know about those two Pasti sites and already had all that material. :) Thank you.

To nativ: I contacted Marakatti, who is our Pasti expert and he will post the info needed to convert disks to stx files.

Our policy at Atarimania is that even if in some cases st or msa files are sufficient, whenever possible we prefer the stx format, as we believe it's the closest file form to the original. Same with atx with the Atari 800XL line.

I have completed the missing pasti list and I'm doing a revision (making comments, diff. language versions, etc) of it. I will try to post it later as a final 0.5 version. After that, the next update will be a 1.0 real final version where titles will be deleted the moment we get them or are available from other sources and contributors.
Remember, this is not a list to replace previous ones from other members like Klapauzius, it's one I decided to do for Atarimania as I was getting upset of buying some titles and then finding later out that those titles had already been converted and I could have spent that money getting not yet converted games.
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

Here's a link to the forum...

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9826

P.s; from memory, I found a webpage with many manuals already scanned [French only :oops: ].

:arrow: will find it anew & post there the link :) .

:D And again many thanks to all suppliers :D
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by SofiST »

advfan wrote:...
Our policy at Atarimania is that even if in some cases st or msa files are sufficient, whenever possible we prefer the stx format, as we believe it's the closest file form to the original. Same with atx with the Atari 800XL line....
had already been converted and I could have spent that money getting not yet converted games.
I can say only that it has no sense. You 'believe' that it is closest. Well, some people know that it is not matter of belief :D
Original disks are in very different formats, with very different track layouts, sector IDs, counts, + there are some nasty tricks to prevent copiing. If some floppy is regular FAT12 floppy, without any protection specialities (as weak sector - case of Millennium 2.2) then really no reason to image it with Pasati . Example: Flight Simulator 2 and all Scenery disks. Total unprotected. ST image is 100% copy, and pasti can not hold anything more. Actually, Pasti format has here some drawback - it will not report disk error in case of damage on such originals, but will 'consider' it as protection (at least in some cases, Ijor may say here something...). Then, Pasti is limited only for emulators, while with ST and MSA we can write to real floppies and use on ....

But I believe that real reason for using STX at all cost is some fear that ST or MSa will fail because of some hidden protection. At least by most of Atari people. Too bad that people with some knowledge, experience is not much popular here, and nobody cares for some rationality. Of course Atarimania has right to do things by own. And I have right to think that it can be done better :D

And I really consider that using term 'converting' in case of imaging some real floppy to STX (or any other) format as bad.
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

Here's the link for some manuals & passwords : (French)

http://www.consolpassion.org/index.htm

ATARI ST(e) manuals :

http://www.consolpassion.org/notices%20atari1.htm

ATARI ST(e) passwords/wheels :

http://www.consolpassion.org/codes_jeux_atari.htm

ATARI 2600 manuals :

http://www.consolpassion.org/notices_atari_2600.htm

*** Most of the docs are in PDF format & can't be posted there : 500 megs... :) ***
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by snoopy »

Hi,
lovely French manual site (some of them are in low res but still better than nothing).

Concerning pasti vs the rest of the file formats:
I'm not an expert in this area, only a user. Having used pasti and floimg, I can say that floimg is much more forgiving if you use bad disks. Pasti very often stops telling me drive calibration error, weak sector or misalignment.
So the statement that pasti will image anything and not notice if it's a bad disk or just copy protection is prolly not true.
It'd be interesting to really have an objective comparison chart/table as to what each format does/offers and how the imaging process works, which level of accuracy they achieve and so on. This way we could stop argueing which was the better one. I'd really be interesting to see what the imaging prgrams do on a technical level.

As for preservation purposes:
I love playing my originals on an emulator (savestates and smaller loading times). But if someone images his really rare disks in stx and is no friend of emulation/wants the real deal (which also leads to slowly or faster -think of summer games- killing your real joysticks), it's prolly advisable to also image in another format to be able to use backups of the original games (since the disks are really weak these days). @Sofist: I understand that you wanna have a way to write pastis back and are wondering why it isn't possible.

As for the need for more stx images of games that are already acquired by the community:
Just an idea... Why don't we do a forumwide competition as to who will contribute the most dumps, scans and material?
Maybe with prices or a hall of fame or "highscores". If advertised properly we could activate even more people. Kinda like the ST Offline tournament. I think most of the needed games/other programs are already in the hands of someone on the board. I bet there'll be some surprises.

Cheers,
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by advfan »

To SofiST: Please notice that I didn't say it's the only file format that Atarimania wants, but that it's the PREFERRED. In fact, we also have games with st or msa for download. I have noticed some stx files that don't seem to run (be it a fault with the conversion or incompatibility with the emulator). In those cases obviously any other file type will be used.
You are also right that some people may have more knowledge than others. I'm only using the games through emulation as I don't have the original hardware anymore, so I may not be the best person to speak about the technical side of protection, sectors, etc., but in talks with other people that have much more technical knowledge that I do, they also seem to prefer the stx format for preservation.

To Snoopy: Your idea of the competition sounds good. The main problem that I see is that only a small amount of users have probably the resources, the time or even the willingness to contribute dumps.

And to agree with Maartau, really many thanks to all supplier and contributors.
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Marakatti »

But I believe that real reason for using STX at all cost is some fear that ST or MSa will fail because of some hidden protection. At least by most of Atari people. Too bad that people with some knowledge, experience is not much popular here, and nobody cares for some rationality. Of course Atarimania has right to do things by own. And I have right to think that it can be done better :D
Real reason is that we want to make Pasti-collection and for protected disks it's the only way to do it accurately. And because we want versions that are as close to the original as possible without modifications or trainers we decided to use it. We are aware that some games with no protection actually can be imaged better on MSA than on Pasti and we also use them when needed.

On the other hand if you just want to play games on real ST, why not use the cracked versions which has been around for decades. There are thousands of MSA or ST images out there ready for writing back to floppy disks. There's no need to remake all disks again for that purpose.

And yes, you have right to think it can be done better. In fact, I would like to hear your thoughts how to improve :)

Maartau: Big thanks for the links!
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by nativ »

Are these 'images' usuable on a real Atari?
Atari STFM 512 / STe 4MB / Mega ST+DSP / Falcon 4MB 16Mhz 68882 - DVD/CDRW/ZIP/DAT - FDI / Jaguar / Lynx 1&2 / 7800 / 2600 / XE 130+SD Card // Sega Dreamcast / Mega2+CD2 // Apple G4

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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by nativ »

it's the constant back and forth of using emulation vs. real hardware. I have an ST and a PCee on one VGA monitor (Falcon & DC too) and a Falcon, ST and DC on the TV! I am trying to get things organised! I think I need several more gang plugs! I keep my eyes peeled for the sound of crackling in the walls, I daren't turn everything on at once! :lol: Kaboom!

Perhaps I just better stick to drawing Space Invaders on paper!

I've had Aranym running on a 600mhz P3 ( took about 20 mins to load! ). Steem is running on my P3 1Ghz, feels like it still needs more speed! Looking to get DCaSTaway running soon. Will PASTI run on that?


Thanks
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by snoopy »

@Maartau: Thanks for offering help. Anything you can provide is greatly appreciated. Especially code wheels and the like (won't you have to destroy them to scan them?). I guess for Lucasfilm games the code wheels are somewhere on the net (they prolly produced the same code wheels for all the systems), which reminds me:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/9/26/
I used to have a DC with DCastaway hooked up to my TV. It was great. I just didn't like that since Menudisks only came numbered, I didn't have an easy way to get to know new games (it was to tedious for casual play to go online and check on new games and there was no savestate or screenshots and scans), hence I ended up using GBST and started frequenting the forums. Atarimania adds even more to the retro experience. DCastaway is really a great emulator with a virtual keyboard or you can use the DC keyboard. I've also used a nice emulator on the old xbox in the past. Best emulation experience on a console was a Nes emulator on the DC, with all the cart scans, title screens, many manuals, a chiptune player, savestates and 99% reliability. I wish something like this to happen for the Atari.
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by SofiST »

snoopy wrote:...
Concerning pasti vs the rest of the file formats:
I'm not an expert in this area, only a user. Having used pasti and floimg, I can say that floimg is much more forgiving if you use bad disks. Pasti very often stops telling me drive calibration error, weak sector or misalignment.
So the statement that pasti will image anything and not notice if it's a bad disk or just copy protection is prolly not true.
It'd be interesting to really have an objective comparison chart/table as to what each format does/offers and how the imaging process works, which level of accuracy they achieve and so on. This way we could stop argueing which was the better one. I'd really be interesting to see what the imaging prgrams do on a technical level.
....
. @Sofist: I understand that you wanna have a way to write pastis back and are wondering why it isn't possible....
Well, I talked that: 'at least in some cases' :) Point is that Human is still smarter than best SW, even SW zillion times complexer than Pasti or any other imaging SW. So, Human is that who can best decide what format is the best. All it according to experiences from past, current needs of self and community etc. Why is best to have 1.8MB STX image with all it's limits instead of 720KB ST ?

About imaging process, level of accuracy etc: I can not talk about pasti, I know only some fragments. Guess that only Ijor can talk real relevant things. "Level of accuracy" - point is not in accuracy level by imaging. Different programs are just made to deal with different floppy formats, track, sector etc layouts.
So, Makedisk, FloImg and similar ones, which deal with unprotected floppies can image only disks with regular sector numbers and sizes on tracks. It means size of 512 bytes and sectors in range from #1 to max possible (about 22), in order. If image format is ST SW tries to read floppy geometry from bootsector (CHS parameters). If they are nonstandard usually user needs to enter correct values. Little better is with MSA, as it holds always corect CHS parameters in header. Accuracy of reading in fact depends not (or mostly not) from imaging SW self, but used floppy drive and driver SW. CRC and RNF errors are reported on HW level, by FDC chip in fact. So, if some sector is not visible, accessible or checksum is bad then FDC chip will report it, and on SW is how to act further. It is good if there is option for few retries, and I think that it is most what SW can do.

Next 'level' of imaging is SW which first detects sectors on track and then reads them - it allows imaging of floppies where sectors are not in range of 1-last one, and not only of regular size (512 bytes). Such format is STT, and SW for imaging is Disk_img.prg (with Steem, and usable only with Steem, writeable with FloImg). But there is not much Atari ST game where STT is good. Example: Virus - only writeable on PC, but works not under Steem ! There are such images on one French Atari gaming site, about 10, I think.

Then, we have Pasti which deals with diverse nasty protection tricks like weak sectors etc.

So, difference between imaging SW is not level of accuracy, or at least I don't like such formulations - they are misleading. Simple imaging SW does accurate for what is made. Pasti just can imaging much more details, if they are there. At price of: bigger image sizes, not beeing writeable, usage only under few emulators, slower work .

So, there is no best format for all cases. Best is what best suits current needs (as is well known).

Writing Pasti images (back) onto floppies - it is certainly not possible with regular HW, floppy drives and controllers.
It reminds me on devices as Synhro Express and similar which are capable... Does some of them can write image files ? Or just do copiing ?

Personally, I'm not much interested to have exact copies of originals. Pasti under Steem is good enough. Even better is some decent crack on real Atari. But crack is not always good, + some crackers, crews made absurd things - protecting own cracks (of sometimes unprotected originals !). Intros are often just annoying etc. Of course best is to play from hard disk, and in fact it is now the cheapest way, as floppies are expensive and hard to find. As I see, about 80% of really good games is already hard disk runnable (adapted, patched).
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by advfan »

As promised, the list from A to Z but before a complete revision.

Also, has anyone managed to run these Pastis: Bubble Dizzy, Crazy Cars 2 and Captain Dynamo? I only get a black screen. If you manage to run them, please post the configuration you are using (TOS, memory size, etc)
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by snoopy »

Hi, just pastiing Powerpack 4 and I ran into some problems... about 10 disks stop at sector 79 with a "too many weak sectors" message. I was lucky to acquire 2 sets of pp 4 and I get the same error in every set. Maybe someone here know more about this. I'd like to have pp 4 complete on Atarimania, it's an awesome collection of games. I opened an extra thread.
About the list: Great. Will you also add the missing compilations?
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Marakatti »

advfan wrote:Also, has anyone managed to run these Pastis: Bubble Dizzy, Captain Dynamo?
Did you disconnect drive B from Steem to run it?
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

advfan wrote:Also, has anyone managed to run these Pastis: Bubble Dizzy, Crazy Cars 2 and Captain Dynamo? I only get a black screen. If you manage to run them, please post the configuration you are using (TOS, memory size, etc)
I'll check them & post infos there :angel: .
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

Marakatti wrote:
advfan wrote:Also, has anyone managed to run these Pastis: Bubble Dizzy, Captain Dynamo?
Did you disconnect drive B from Steem to run it?
Agree with Marakatti : B.D & C.D needs B drive disconnected :) . (Checked from TOS 1.00 to 1.62 fr / 1 meg -> 2 meg).

Time to find Crazy C. 2 & test it ... 01101100 ...
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by SofiST »

advfan wrote:As promised, the list from A to Z but before a complete revision.

Also, has anyone managed to run these Pastis: Bubble Dizzy, Crazy Cars 2 and Captain Dynamo? I only get a black screen. If you manage to run them, please post the configuration you are using (TOS, memory size, etc)
I had problems to run Crazy Cars 2 - 2 different STX files worked not. Solution was changing of pasti.dll file to latest one len: 102400 bytes. But some other things may be problem too. At moment I can not start 2 diff. STX image of game Warp, what work for gay who sent me with same pasti.dll . I see only floppy accurate timing on or off in Steem (likely affects not Pasti handling). Don't know what else may be ... Tried with diverse TOS versions, RAM sizes. Usually TOS version is relevant only by games with visible files on floppy. By straight bootable ones, without regular files it should not matter.

Ah, and always only with 1 drive (A) .
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

SofiST wrote:I had problems to run Crazy Cars 2 - 2 different STX files worked not. Solution was changing of pasti.dll file to latest one len: 102400 bytes. But some other things may be problem too. At moment I can not start 2 diff. STX image of game Warp, what work for gay who sent me with same pasti.dll . I see only floppy accurate timing on or off in Steem (likely affects not Pasti handling). Don't know what else may be ... Tried with diverse TOS versions, RAM sizes. Usually TOS version is relevant only by games with visible files on floppy. By straight bootable ones, without regular files it should not matter.

Ah, and always only with 1 drive (A) .
* Sofist : have you a dump of Warp ? I'm looking for those disks since years 8) . [The copylock is included into the game music].

* Concerning Crazy Cars II : I've traced the game & I saw errors from reading Track 37 to 54, then the game goes in a garbage of code :( . Bad dump ?

- I can continue tests if somebody also post their dump (even faulty 8) ).

:cheers: for all. :cheers:
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by SofiST »

Maartau wrote: * Sofist : have you a dump of Warp ? I'm looking for those disks since years 8) . [The copylock is included into the game music]...
I have STX of Warp, 2 versions even, if remember correct. Need to check ... And have some other, rare stuff, like Stardust, Magic Boy ... Can post to you... But I'm little disappointed that you did not put STX of Encounter on Atarimania (less known game), Monster Business is also sent to you... I know, there is a lot of games, but some titles are worth of attention :D
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

SofiST wrote:I have STX of Warp, 2 versions even, if remember correct. Need to check ... And have some other, rare stuff, like Stardust, Magic Boy ... Can post to you... But I'm little disappointed that you did not put STX of Encounter on Atarimania (less known game), Monster Business is also sent to you... I know, there is a lot of games, but some titles are worth of attention :D
Oh yes ! :D I'm really really interested even for Encouter :D .

I have to recrack -Warp- : the cracked version from Fallen Angels I have is bugged :( (And still needed for the eMPiRe homepage :) ).

I bring my help to aTaRiMaNiA if needed, but I also still collect different sources to fix things : all sources are good :) .

Thanks SOFiST 8) .

Of course, I'm not in hurry :coffe: . I'm testing disks from here & there ...

***

After a check on "Fighter Bomber" -> the game fails & leads to bombs... From the STX I had by MuG : also crashing :( .

In '89, I got a 2 disks version copylocked by Rob N. + novella - the one send by MuG haven't the Rob N. :?

***

More tests to come :angel: .
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

Another important point about "http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... 10492.html"

The "Teenage Mutant" STX given on aTaRiMaNiA is in fact the Coin-Op version.
Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles - The Coin Up (1991)(Image Works) (5).gif
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

Here's the STX renamed... And a "*.STP" patch to crack the pass codes (as I haven't them :angel: ).

*** Apply the patch when the game request the codes :mrgreen: .

:arrow: (Or have a look at $33800 & replace the "bne $3368c" (= $6600fe8a) by "nop nop" (= $4e714e71).
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Re: Coordination for/when making Pastis

Post by Maartau »

The scanned floppy at "aTaRiMania" is the "Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles (1990)(Image Works)".

:arrow: This disk is the original single edition : also copylocked by a pass code & a Rob N. internal :) .

:arrow: you can find it at "Planetemu" (cr Empire :wink: ).

Actually, I'm always looking for that STX in its uncracked form.
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