Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

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Nyh
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Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by Nyh »

darklight wrote:What are reccomended sprite & tile sizes? Do all tiles have to be the same size / shape?
The tiles are 16x16. All tiles have the same size. The sprite is 32x22. A smaller main sprite is possible. Adding things is very hard because the game consumes all processor time.

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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by darklight »

Here are some graphics I did a quick & dirty conversion on - tileset isnt complete - most of the tiles from the first stages (green hill zone) are there though. I havent got many enemy sprites yet either. I also dont think the pallettes amongst the files match either - something I'm sure I can do with a bit more work.

Is this going in the right direction - nyh - could you do something with these?
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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by bullis1 »

I played the game (Heartland 2000) a couple times recently and also viewed the tiles and thought about whether it was possible to make a Sonic style game using the same engine. I think it is, but since Heartland 2000 already uses 100% of the CPU time it will be a real challenge. Heartland 2000 has the speed and map sizes already but it lacks simple physics and most importantly it has no loops, jumps, springs (that I saw) or enemies. What would it take to get some of the above features in? I assume it would be a huge undertaking.

Aside from all this thinking I did have fun playing Heartland 2000. Thanks again for the nice game!
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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by Nyh »

darklight wrote:Here are some graphics I did a quick & dirty conversion on - tileset isnt complete - most of the tiles from the first stages (green hill zone) are there though. I havent got many enemy sprites yet either. I also dont think the pallettes amongst the files match either - something I'm sure I can do with a bit more work.

Is this going in the right direction - nyh - could you do something with these?
Frankly, I am amazed of the quality of the graphics. I didn't expect the 16 color conversion would be that good. The tiles fit exactly on the 16x16 matrix needed and also the hedgehog seems usable. Needs some time to create the masks and we will have to make the view screen some line smaller because of the greater height of the sprite compared to the Heartland sprite.

I already programmed some of the Sonic speedups into Heartland, next I will import the Sonic sprite into Heartland to get into the mood.

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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by bullis1 »

Nyh wrote: I already programmed some of the Sonic speedups into Heartland, next I will import the Sonic sprite into Heartland to get into the mood.
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If you add spindash, then I will be very very happy.
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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by Nyh »

bullis1 wrote:I played the game (Heartland 2000) a couple times recently and also viewed the tiles and thought about whether it was possible to make a Sonic style game using the same engine. I think it is, but since Heartland 2000 already uses 100% of the CPU time it will be a real challenge. Heartland 2000 has the speed and map sizes already but it lacks simple physics and most importantly it has no loops, jumps, springs (that I saw) or enemies. What would it take to get some of the above features in? I assume it would be a huge undertaking.
I think I can get the physics, loops, jumps and springs into the game engine. We only will have some stationary enemies.

A big no will be the parallax background and rings bouncing all around the screen after a collision.

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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by Nyh »

bullis1 wrote:If you add spindash, then I will be very very happy.
WTF is spindash and why do we need it?

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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by bullis1 »

Nyh wrote:
bullis1 wrote:If you add spindash, then I will be very very happy.
WTF is spindash and why do we need it?
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Well, it's Sonic the Hedgehog's staple move and classic game mechanic. Although he didn't do it in the initial release of the original game so maybe you never encountered it. It's when you duck and tap the button to "rev up" and roll at high speeds.

Anyway it sounds like you are planning to add other features and that it is indeed possible so I'll just stop with my suggestions and let you get on with it!

Also, since you decided to use tiles ripped from Sonic I guess you don't need any art from me now?
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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by Nyh »

bullis1 wrote:
Nyh wrote:WTF is spindash and why do we need it?
Well, it's Sonic the Hedgehog's staple move and classic game mechanic. Although he didn't do it in the initial release of the original game so maybe you never encountered it. It's when you duck and tap the button to "rev up" and roll at high speeds.

Anyway it sounds like you are planning to add other features and that it is indeed possible so I'll just stop with my suggestions and let you get on with it!

Also, since you decided to use tiles ripped from Sonic I guess you don't need any art from me now?
I think that if I implement springs I also have implemented spindash. It sounds like springactions without a spring but initiated by a joystick action.

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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by StickHead »

I would be happy to do some GFX work if you need title/loading/level intro screens. Give me the nod and I'll get to work!

The Master System screens transfer across easily. Here is the title screen in Degas Elite 8)
sonictitle.png
The level intro screens look nice too. If you wanted a Megadrive style intro screen, this would obviously take a little more work, but easily do-able.

Also: If you are trying to recreate the original Sonic for the ST, spindash is totally unnecessary, in fact, it would probably make the original Sonic too easy anyway. Also, it would probably make more sense to try and recreate the MS version (in order to keep the coders from going insane) which is different, but still very playable.
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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by darklight »

bullis1 wrote:
Nyh wrote:
bullis1 wrote:If you add spindash, then I will be very very happy.
WTF is spindash and why do we need it?
Hans Wessels
Well, it's Sonic the Hedgehog's staple move and classic game mechanic. Although he didn't do it in the initial release of the original game so maybe you never encountered it. It's when you duck and tap the button to "rev up" and roll at high speeds.

Anyway it sounds like you are planning to add other features and that it is indeed possible so I'll just stop with my suggestions and let you get on with it!

Also, since you decided to use tiles ripped from Sonic I guess you don't need any art from me now?
Sorry bullis I missed your post where you said you'd draw some tiles up :oops:

How about some new level graphics though? I'd love to see some sort of aztec jungle ruin levels, how about atlantis as a theme, or underground / inside a volcano, endor ewok village / tree top style, north pole / ice caverns, great wall of china....
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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by Nyh »

darklight wrote:
bullis1 wrote:Also, since you decided to use tiles ripped from Sonic I guess you don't need any art from me now?
Sorry bullis I missed your post where you said you'd draw some tiles up :oops:

How about some new level graphics though? I'd love to see some sort of aztec jungle ruin levels, how about atlantis as a theme, or underground / inside a volcano, endor ewok village / tree top style, north pole / ice caverns, great wall of china....
Ripping some graphics is the easy part. Making the levels is the big challenge. Even if we can rip all tiles from Sonic we still need the levels. Ripping the levels will be much harder and I am sure we will have to edit them because we don't have all the features of Sonic and we have to cheat some of the features by making use of animated tiles instead of sprites.

Heartland used the STOS missing link map editor and glued 4 maps together to make the play field. That is fine with me but I think I can convert almost any map editor format to the format I use.

I have drawn some blocks for an extended Heartland with more animation and maybe even underwater parts but never finished it because I like programming better as drawing sprites and levels.
BLOCKS01.png
BLOCKS02.png
Animated coins, flasks, torches and spikes in various environments
BLOCKSA1.png
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BLOCKSA2.png
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Re: Games That Never came to ST.. but SHOULD!

Post by simonsunnyboy »

Why not start a new thread? Had a look at the Sonic sprite sets and they look very nice! :) Looking forward to see a new game release for the ST....
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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by darklight »

Nyh - Hearland looks like it supports flat surfaces, and slopes of a 45 degree slopes (for every tile the ground drops / rises by a tile).

Do you think you can implement shallower slopes of say 22 degrees, which would take 2 tiles to drop 1 tile, and steeper slopes which for every tile drops 2 tiles? I think this is fairly important to a sonic game.

I can have a look at making maps this weekend. I've never done one before but I'm thinking it will be something I'll enjoy - as long as the map editor is ok to use.

You mentioned that a heartland map is 4 x .mbk files - are they arranged in a square, or can they be arranged in a linear way? I hope you understand what I'm trying to say :)
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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by Nyh »

darklight wrote:Nyh - Hearland looks like it supports flat surfaces, and slopes of a 45 degree slopes (for every tile the ground drops / rises by a tile).

Do you think you can implement shallower slopes of say 22 degrees, which would take 2 tiles to drop 1 tile, and steeper slopes which for every tile drops 2 tiles? I think this is fairly important to a sonic game.

I can have a look at making maps this weekend. I've never done one before but I'm thinking it will be something I'll enjoy - as long as the map editor is ok to use.

You mentioned that a heartland map is 4 x .mbk files - are they arranged in a square, or can they be arranged in a linear way? I hope you understand what I'm trying to say :)
I think I can do the 1:2 and 2:1 slopes too, it will be a bit more rework of the game engine in the sprite movement part (which is all C code so quite simple to change).

The original Heartland maps are 4 columns. If you look ate the game map (start the game and press 'm') you can see the joins because there is less complexity:
heartland_map.png
The original Heartland was written in STOS and had to join maps because of a 32 k size limit for the maps. My Heartland 2k has no such limits. Most important limit is the memory limit. The game fits just in 1 Mb.

Important thing for our Sonic clone... What memory limit should we use? 1 Mb or 4 Mb?

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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by bullis1 »

Nyh wrote: Important thing for our Sonic clone... What memory limit should we use? 1 Mb or 4 Mb?
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1 MB definitely. It really shouldn't need more than that (I think). Plus, if it needed more I'd be S.O.L. :(
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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by nativ »

Hi,
I think 4mb with a multi-load for 1mb machines? Or at least making use of 4mb if available!
Will there be a version of Sonic Adventure in STOS 3D?


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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

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bullis1 wrote:
Nyh wrote: Important thing for our Sonic clone... What memory limit should we use? 1 Mb or 4 Mb?
1 MB definitely. It really shouldn't need more than that (I think). Plus, if it needed more I'd be S.O.L. :(
Heartland 2000 just runs on a 1 Mb machine. It is not easy to squeeze so much scrolling speed out an ST. My guess is the Sonic maps are simpler and smaller as the Heartland Map. But There is a bigger sprite and far more sprites because we have to prerotate the sprite for the loops.

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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by Nyh »

nativ wrote:Will there be a version of Sonic Adventure in STOS 3D?
I think this is highly improbable.

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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by christos »

Nyh wrote:
nativ wrote:Will there be a version of Sonic Adventure in STOS 3D?
I think this is highly improbable.

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Still, I would have loved to see someone try it :D. I guess it might be kind of possible if you code STOS the way tobe codes GFA...

In a more related note, it would be nice to have a fast paced platformer for the next STOT season...
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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by darklight »

3D sonic on the ST? :lol:

I've got a little stuck with getting all the graphics I grab having the same palette - I'm writing a little windows util to grab pi1s from the same gif, preserving the same palette in each pi1. Once done, converting gfx from .gifs will be pretty simple.

I've just had a play with the missing link's map editor, everything seems straightforward. I think this is very doable, if we use the master system levels / gfx as a base.

Nyh - what are the chances you could implement a palette split in a level - e.g. the labrynth levels are half underwater, say the first 64 rows use graphics with one palette, and the next 64 rows use another palette, but the same gfx? Does that take much processor time?
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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by darklight »

Nyh wrote:
bullis1 wrote:
Nyh wrote: Important thing for our Sonic clone... What memory limit should we use? 1 Mb or 4 Mb?
1 MB definitely. It really shouldn't need more than that (I think). Plus, if it needed more I'd be S.O.L. :(
Heartland 2000 just runs on a 1 Mb machine. It is not easy to squeeze so much scrolling speed out an ST. My guess is the Sonic maps are simpler and smaller as the Heartland Map. But There is a bigger sprite and far more sprites because we have to prerotate the sprite for the loops.

Hans Wessels

Not if we force sonic to be in the spindash mode while going around the loop?

If we use the master system gfx & level design as a base, they dont have the loops, so we avoid this problem, for now anyway. What does everyone think? I say we try to get an engine going first, a proof of concept, then we try more advanced things like loops...
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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by bullis1 »

darklight wrote: Not if we force sonic to be in the spindash mode while going around the loop?
That's a great idea that would save a lot of RAM and cut down on the amount of sprites. That is, if the game even has any loops in it.
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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by Nyh »

darklight wrote:Nyh - what are the chances you could implement a palette split in a level - e.g. the labrynth levels are half underwater, say the first 64 rows use graphics with one palette, and the next 64 rows use another palette, but the same gfx? Does that take much processor time?
I think we can have a palette switch. But please keep color 0, the background color the same everywhere.

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Re: Let's convert Sonic to the ST!

Post by Nyh »

bullis1 wrote:
darklight wrote: Not if we force sonic to be in the spindash mode while going around the loop?
That's a great idea that would save a lot of RAM and cut down on the amount of sprites. That is, if the game even has any loops in it.
Yep, spindash mode is a simple solution. I would appreciate the game to have loops. That makes it into a real Sonic.

BTW: should we call it Sonic and make it such an obvious ripoff? I don't want SEGA to get nasty on us.

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