Sealhunt in Canada

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ST Graveyard
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Sealhunt in Canada

Post by ST Graveyard »

Hello everybody,

This might sound like a real downer, but I just wanted to say to those who haven't heard yet (and for those who still care) that in the last 3 days 250000 seals have been brutally beaten to death and sometimes even skinned alive ... After a long halt, the Canadian governement has opened the hunt again! All of this just for their fur. Explanations about seals being a danger to the fishing environment is of course total bullshit, as they only consume about 3% of fish eaten by man! There is no question about it that this is all wrong ... More so, this is not acceptable (how the hell do you actually slay 250000 animals in just 3 days with only a bat?)!

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I urge everybody out there not to buy any fur. Spread the word around...Open your eyes! Ban Canadian fur importation!!

We live in a cruel world sometimes ... And this is yet another fine example of what sad beings we actually are ... We definitely lost this game !!

:cry: :cry:

I would like to end this preaching with some wise words from Chris Barnes (Singer of the fantastic "Six Feet Under" - no pun intended :wink: ) :

*Grunting Voice*

OPEN ... YOUR ... MIND !!!!

Cheers,
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Post by dungeon.master »

I saw that on TV :cry:

it was very cruel; i was near to throw up ...

i don't understand how a "man" can make so much crualty.
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Post by Gryzor »

Their cruelty is only matched by the stupidity of the ladies wearing that fur... God knows I'd never buy one for my girl or lady!

Darn...

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Post by keili »

It always drives tears in my eyes, if I see helpless animals being killed. Also if nature is tortured by cutting old big trees for example. And only for profit and for some rich and stupid europeans or north-americans.
I would never, never, never give money for such products.
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Post by tobe »

Wearing dead animal fur is so hasbeen !
step 1: introduce bug, step 2: fix bug, step 3: goto step 1.
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Post by ST Graveyard »

Well, stupidity or not. Wearing fur is stupid...

...But no matter how you think about it ... Being able to just beat the crap out of those helpless seals, mother seal screaming while her babys are beaten ... That makes you one sick b*stard ... so what if you make money by doing it??

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Post by tobe »

You right, it's not acceptable !
step 1: introduce bug, step 2: fix bug, step 3: goto step 1.
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Post by idrougge »

Do you eat meat? You do? Then please shut up.
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Post by Gryzor »

Argh, that's just about the most idiotic argument one could bring to this discussion...

...and let us not forget that numerous studies have shown that plants may have sentiments, and do have communication and some weird sort of intelligence. So...

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Post by dungeon.master »

idrougge wrote:Do you eat meat? You do? Then please shut up.
yes,we all eat meat, but i think you don't realise that the way of killing is not the same, and the aim not the same !

it's possible to kill animals without crualty.

it's acceptable to kill animals for food.

it's acceptable to kill animals for food without crualty.

IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE TO KILL WITH CRUALTY FOR FUR ...

so please shut up yourself.

forgive me, but i think you're an idiot ...
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Post by ST Graveyard »

To idrougge (who obviously doesn't have a clue what we are talking about here) ...

Yes, I do eat meat ... I've been a vegetarian for 3 years though (if that should matter). I started eating meat again about 4 months ago, because I was starting to get mal fed. I've always loved meat, but I just stopped eating it when I realised how much suffering it took before it actually landed on my plate. So, in that perspective, you might call me a hypocrite. In my years as a vegetarian I had to swallow a lot of crap from people, who were always pissing on my back (so to speak), which I never understood (and still don't understand) ...

But anyway, the thing is, this has nothing to do with it. I mean, what does the mass slaughter of seals for fur has to do with eating meat?

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Post by idrougge »

dungeon.master wrote:
idrougge wrote:Do you eat meat? You do? Then please shut up.
yes,we all eat meat, but i think you don't realise that the way of killing is not the same, and the aim not the same !

it's possible to kill animals without crualty.
Just as it's possible with humans. They do it all the time in America, with lethal injections and so on.
dungeon.master wrote:it's acceptable to kill animals for food.
I think so too. But if that is acceptable, then killing them for any other purpose is all right, too.
dungeon.master wrote:it's acceptable to kill animals for food without crualty.
And with cruelty. Kill them all you want, any way you want, but don't point fingers when you eat dead animals every day. Meat is about as necessary for your survival as a fur coat, you can do without either in this enlightened age.
BTW, is it acceptable to wear a coat if it's made from animals killed in a not so cruel fashion?
dungeon.master wrote:IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE TO KILL WITH CRUALTY FOR FUR ...
Says bloody who?
dungeon.master wrote:forgive me, but i think you're an idiot ...
Why, because you are a hypocrite? If killing animals for purpose A is acceptable, then killing them all the way down to purpose Z is all right, too.
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Post by ST Graveyard »

This is, apart from certain posts last year about the war in Iraq, the saddest thing I have ever read on Atari Forum so far ...

Anyway, it goes without saying that I disagree with you (and I'm really happy I do) ... I think some of your answers don't make sense at all ... I'm happy few people use the same logic as you do, else we would be living in hell!

I also think you're way off with the "hypocrit" finger pointing ... I mean, you are the one saying killing 250 000 seals is for survival reasons (???) ...

And about your comment on killing them the way you want ... Well, by saying such a thing (which seems pretty stupid, if you ask me) I think you also know what kind of person it makes you ... I mean, if we are able to kill them without much suffering, why not do it that way?

Take care everybody ...

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Post by Gryzor »

idrougge wrote:Just as it's possible with humans. They do it all the time in America, with lethal injections and so on.
This is called Reductio ad Hitlerum and is rather stupid. Hitler loved dogs, somebody loves dogs, ergo 'somebody' is a Hitlerite. Similarily, killing humans, even painlessly, is bad. Therefore, killing animals to eat, even painlessly, is also bad.

Man, you have to put your arguments in an order...
I think so too. But if that is acceptable, then killing them for any other purpose is all right, too.

As I said, you have to put your arguments in an order. This was a classic logical fallacy -um... lemme see... oh, here: False Analogy
And with cruelty. Kill them all you want, any way you want, but don't point fingers when you eat dead animals every day.
As Qbert would say, ?##!?
Meat is about as necessary for your survival as a fur coat, you can do without either in this enlightened age.
Leaving the 'enlightened' characterisation aside (more like Dark Ages: the Sequel to me), me as well as many, many others do believe that meat is in fact necessary for a good health and cannot be substituted by canned proteins.
BTW, is it acceptable to wear a coat if it's made from animals killed in a not so cruel fashion?
Of course not, you're the only one who said that. This is another logical fallacy, twisting the argument this way, but I can't be bothered to look it up.
dungeon.master wrote:IT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE TO KILL WITH CRUALTY FOR FUR ...
Says bloody who?
Says bloody common logic and humane ethics, and, obviously, Dungeon.Master. Good enough for me.
Why, because you are a hypocrite? If killing animals for purpose A is acceptable, then killing them all the way down to purpose Z is all right, too.
Bah, this is hopeless, you have GOT to take some logic classes, this is stretching and twisting beyond all recognition...

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Post by Ragstaff »

Well said Gryzor. I was poised to start rebutting all of these fallacies, but you did it already (and much more succinctly I think :) )

One thing i will expand though, idrougge....

>it's acceptable to kill animals for food.


I think so too. But if that is acceptable, then killing them for any other purpose is all right, too.
Not so.
I will use extreme examples, simply to prove that there can be a difference:

a) You are starving to death, your children are starving to death, and there is no food around. So you hunt for food, and kill a rabbit.

z) You are bored. You take a machine-gun and start slaughtering a field of cows.

Now, I'm sure you could come backwards from those two extremes with example b) and y), c) and x), etc and find a line or grey area somewhere in the middle, but anyone can see that would be a big exercise. All I wanted to do there was establish that there is a difference. If you deny that z) is worse than a), I can take you no further, as you obviously don't want to trade in logic.

To break it down just a little more, let me say this.

In both cases we have:
1) a requirement, and 2) an action.

What makes something right or wrong depends very much on the weight of those two elements.
How important is the requirement? Can the requirement be met in other ways that have less impact?

For instance, if in example a), the starving man and his children were actually standing in a cold-room full of meat, yet they still found an animal to kill, we can't justify that in the same way. His requirement was still as urgent, but there were less extreme actions available.

I think one of the rules behind "common sense" (which we don't realise) is you start with the requirement, then look for the action you can take that has the least impact on world around us. If that action doesn't exist, look for a more extreme action.

You stop looking for actions when your requirement is not worth the action.
For example, with z), the requirement was merely to satisfy a passing emotional dissatisfaction, yet the action to meet this requirement created much more "emotional dissatisfaction" in other creatures that, ended their lives, and wasted their resources. While not as important as a person, cows certainly have a higher value than "boredom".

Now let us go back to the seals.

requirement: To look pretty, impress your friends. To spend more money than other people can afford and feel sophisticated and important. To possess something exotic.

action: kill thousands of creatures with much suffering and trauma in an uncontrolled and unaccountable manner, and after doing that letting the animals meat rot.

This scenario upsets our common sense because the requirement is
not important, and it's actually quite unhealthy (vain, pretentious).
The action to meet this requirement causes extremely excessive impact, and could be done with less impact.

I'm finished....
But just for "fun", let's look at some other issues in the world.
requirement: To wipe crap from our asses when we go to the toilet
action: chop down thousands of acres of rainforest and turn it into toilet paper, while sending tonnes of paper to the tip, which could have been recycled

requirement: Keep car cool while you're shopping on a hot day
action: leave it running in the car-park with the air-conditioning on.

requirement: To have shelter and transport
action: Live in a mansion and drive a Mercedes.
Can this be justified while people around you live in poverty, and people somewhere in the world starve to death?

requirement: To make light, so that we can stay up late at night
action: Use a significant % of an industry that mines coal and plutonium, damages the environment, and whose resources are finite.

requirement: To do word-processing, play some games, and communicate
action: Make bigger, fatter operating systems, spend $billions on new, faster hardware that uses more power (which we get from coal or plutonium) , uses more silicon and chemicals to manufacture, and will be out-dated in 2 years.
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Post by Gryzor »

Great, really great. Wonderif he'll understand a thing, tho. Maybe he'll say "so, killing animals without cruelty is ok as long as you use recycled toilet paper?"


Btw, concenring the manufacture of equipment, you can't imagine how much materials it takes to make one darned chip... let alone a computer or television... It's pretty scary.

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