Game greed

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rb
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Game greed

Post by rb »

hi

for a long time now i wondered why are people so greedy when it comes to games? (i do not exclude myself :) )

so why do we download all these menus and individual games?

speaking for me only .. i simply have no time to play thousands of games watching all kinds of demos etc..

as a matter of fact these menus are just reducing my disk space :) well many of them i downloaded regarding netatari.

i could understand someone who buys original games since they are collectibles and can be sold again.. possibly with profit :)

also... i like certain genres of games.. personally i like strategy games especially nation building ones.. so why do i have all these shoot'em ups on my drive? i am sure you have your preferences, too

so how do you folks go about this then?

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Post by tobe »

Yesterday i asked myself :
Why do not download all the DBug menus and try them all ?
Good idea isn't it ?
:lol:
I'm still involved in video-games coding, so i can say :
"It's important to know all this games".
But the truth is :
I always used to collect more games that i can play, really, i don't know why 8O !
step 1: introduce bug, step 2: fix bug, step 3: goto step 1.
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Post by ST Graveyard »

I collect and want to keep the memory alive ... And preserve the history that was ST Gaming (where did we hear that again) ...

Does that suffice?
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Post by dungeon.master »

ST Graveyard wrote:I collect and want to keep the memory alive ... And preserve the history that was ST Gaming (where did we hear that again) ...

Does that suffice?
Yes :!: :!:

in some restaurant it's : "All you can eat"
For me it's "All you can collect and save from Atari" :D

As I have yet said : we are historians 8)

bye
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Post by rb »

hi

i acknowledge all your points... that are actually also my points :)

but preserving gaming history does not mean that every one of us has to preserve them.. there are now various ftp/web sites where you can find almost everything....

but don't get me wrong.. i am not opposing the greed.. i just wanted to know the reasons because i am quite sure that most people do not really care about the history of atari but about their own wellfare, speak free games and such alikes

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Post by rb »

ok let's spice this chat up a little bit....

i claim that the whole atari scene (actually the entire retro scene) is based on the work/achievements of previous crackers.

without these cracked and converted games there would be no compilations/menus etc... this means that it would be quite a waste of time to gig into emulation since there'd be hardly anything to emulate but some freeware, public domain, or not copy-protected games..

so the summary is: the whole scene is build upon illegal cracking and spreading of formerly commercial software...

of course, after so many years, the software companies don't care anymore but i am sure that the copyright of the vast majority of games is still in the hands of the authors/producers... maybe here lies a lot of the temptation to grap every game you can get :)

finally.. we have to be thankful to all those crews that managed to crack almost everything under the sun.. without them we wouldn't post our 2 cents here :)

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Post by ST Graveyard »

I've written in a past editorial something in the lines of :

"It's funny how the people that were claimed to be responsible for the death of the ST (the hackers), are now the people who keep the scene alive ..."
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Post by rb »

this is very true...

i don't think that the hackers/crackers are responsible for the downfall of atari.

but on the other hand it certainly had an impact on software publishers.

since i am a programmer myself i kind of can feel how those guys must have felt back then.. you have a great idea for a new game. give your best to convert your ideas to a piece of software. well at the end of the day you want to make money, and you get much less you have reckoned.. just because the copy protection which possibly was not yours has been cracked in no time and the market is flooded by pirate copies. fortunately i have never been involved in any commercial product that people can buy off the shelf...

well i have to admit that in my good old c64 days i had tons of those pirate copies myself... once i had my first ST and got more and more involved in programming i have changed my attitude somewhat..

another point worth pondering is why people consider software along with music and literature as something easy to take.... there has been even voices saying that software should cost nothing in the first place.. well no one in his right mind would say cars should be free... or bread and milk

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Post by tobe »

rb wrote:i don't think that the hackers/crackers are responsible for the downfall of atari.
I don't think hacking and cracking is the same thing, a lots of hackers don't want to crack, crackers are hackers but hackers aren't crackers !
rb wrote:another point worth pondering is why people consider software along with music and literature as something easy to take
Because of binary files, you can copy them easyly & infinitly, but editors didn't find the right way to sell them, they just pack it in a box and put it in markets :roll: !
step 1: introduce bug, step 2: fix bug, step 3: goto step 1.
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Post by rb »

alright...

i used 'hackers' to quote other posts.. before that i always called them crackers... hackers are rather intruders for me :)

of course i know that due to the binary format it is simple to copy software, music, e-books or whatever...

my question was supposed to go into another direction..

let's say someone finds a purse with one hundred pounds and an id... some would keep it.. but i guess most would obey their conscience and return it to the owner..

when it comes to binary files, people have actually no shame.. it is simply not considered as committing a crime.. so here is my question's core.. when did it happen that people have such an attitude towards soft and therefore abstract media... well apart from the boxes :)

i can't think of anything else editors/publishers could have done to protect their products... at the end of the day they had to obey the limitations of the hardware.. or alternatively they would have had to produce individual and complicated dongles for each game

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Post by tobe »

rb wrote:i used 'hackers' to quote other posts.. before that i always called them crackers... hackers are rather intruders for me :)
What about deep knowledge of computers, artistic coding, fun :D ?
rb wrote:let's say someone finds a purse with one hundred pounds and an id... some would keep it.. but i guess most would obey their conscience and return it to the owner..
Of course, you can't copy it and return the original to its owner...
step 1: introduce bug, step 2: fix bug, step 3: goto step 1.
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Post by rb »

funny.. how fast a tgread topic can go astray :)

this thread was actually about grabbing all games/menus or whatever.. even though no one could possibly have time to play them all.. especially considering that many of us do have emulators and games for other systems..

yes it's true.. you can't copy id and money.. well usually not :)

let's put it in other words... when a friend of mine knows i have stolen a cd from the local music shop he will probably fingerpoint at me.. and let me know what a bad guy i am... if the same friend would catch me downloading the same cd for free from a peer-to-peer system he would probably say... so what, no big deal... but in the end.. both are illegal, aren't they?

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Post by tobe »

both are illegal, aren't they?
Yes of course...

Your friend is right, you should stop with cds :lol: !
step 1: introduce bug, step 2: fix bug, step 3: goto step 1.
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Post by rb »

:lol:

well there is still no answer :)

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Perihelion

Post by Perihelion »

To adress the first point: I simply like to own stuff. I'm a collector, I want to own stuff. It's that simple, not for any preserve point, although that plays a part of course, but for the simple and very shallow joy of owning something.
This actually ties into the other topic, I want to own originals. I can't say that I don't pirate, but to me it's tied very much into your economy. Before, I copied all my games and played on PC, same with movies, all DivX (shhh). But now that I have a work and a paycheck, I hardly download anything, I have 60 DVD's in my movie collection (that's about 10 new a month since I started working), I also have moved my gaming over to my new gameCube that I bought. Oh, I haven't begun to buy any audio CD's yet because I spent all cash on DVD's and GameCube games.

The point I'm making is the same point Steve Jobs wants to make with his iTunes; it's so easy to pirate software/digital media that you do it. You don't really want to be a pirate but the alternative is extremely expensive in comparisone. Wee need a cheaper alternative! Nobody wants to be a pirate, it's just to tempting.
Also, I don't know how it is, but not that many of us that have jobs spend that much time pirating do they/we? We simply don't have the time to work 8 hrs/day and THEN spend a few hrs/week to download warez, we use the money we get for our work to buy stuff because it feels better, right?
An honest poll now :)
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Post by rb »

hi perihelion

as you said.. you like to OWN stuff.. the original ones :) who doesn't? this still doesn't explain why we are so greedy and grab everything :)

of course iPod has been introduced because there is so much pirating going on... this would lead to another topic.. does apple support illegal music downloads :)

i haven't said anywhere that i am an angel... i tried to download a couple of times some movies... i gave up.. it was simply annoying even with broadband... on the other hand.. here in london are places where you can buy the newest dvd's (pirated ones) for a few quid before they are sold in the shops.. i guess it will be the same in other places...

alternatives to purchasing cd's? well there are not many... a few months ago i have signed on a music service.. for ten pounds i can download and listen to as many tracks as i want... and the quality is quite superb.. but now the trouble starts.. i can't burn cd's using those downloaded tracks.. to do that you have to fork out 99p per track.. no matter how long the track is or whether it's a chart album or not..

so now let's see.. an average album might have let's say 16 tracks.. so to burn them on cd i have pay almost £16.. additionally i have to buy my own cd writables, cases.. have to pay a lot for ink cartridges not counting the work involved to download everything and finally burn the cd..

well if i go to one of the big music stores like hmv or virgin i might get it quite cheap.. or i could try amazon..... some cd's go for a few pounds..

actually i tried to buy the licence for all tracks of an album.. well i got 12 and after 'paying' for the thirteenth they coudln't find the track in there database... bummer :(

over all i think those companies taking the piss... coca cola has started the same business now... 99p per track... simply ridiculous

so no wonder people turn to p2p to download things for free.. right or wrong

cheers
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Post by manicx »

Well, the reason we collect these things is because life is short and as time is going on, we realise how much we miss our past. I was thinking a while ago that it was in 1990 when me and my pals were having a good laugh with our ST. 14 years ago and everything seems like it was yesterday. All this, is an attempt to revive our memories, to revive our past with our friends. I don't think that our kids will be interested in playing games like the ones we played anyway. So, it's us Vs the future. That's why I collect all this s/w and h/w.
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Post by rb »

hi

fair points, manicx... and somewhat in line with the reasons of others and my own ones :)

i guess there will be no clear answer.. humans seem to be greedy in general, never happy, never enough of whatever :)

cheers
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Perihelion

Post by Perihelion »

Yeah, to me, noSTalgia sometimes is a desperate attempt to relive feelings that aren't any more, then again, some stuff is even better than it was.
Some games just don't hold anymore, like oldmovies,but some stuff, is even better tasting today than it was and you're surprised how good they still are.
Examples being Dungeon Master and Flash Gordon (the movie) :)
hey, i managed to say the same thing twice! have we gone complete OT now??
(ooooh, this is my 100th post, now it's definately OT)
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Post by rb »

cngrats to your 100th post, perihelion :) as the saying goes.. the first 10 are the hardeest :)

yeah it seems to be true.. we try to grap the last straw to hold on to our past.. well at least the older ones of us :)

but still... i will never be able to play all these thousands of games i have on my hard disk :?

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Post by idrougge »

ST Graveyard wrote:I've written in a past editorial something in the lines of :

"It's funny how the people that were claimed to be responsible for the death of the ST (the hackers), are now the people who keep the scene alive ..."
Keep what scene alive? I don't see the crackers coding new games, do you? If anything, the crackers have moved onto the PC to crack more games there. Only this time, the software companies can't threaten to move onto another platform.
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Post by tobe »

idrougge wrote:I don't see the crackers coding new games, do you?
Yes, i can :lol:, but you might call them coders, because they can't crack a game they wrote :lol: !

Crakers gave me the opportunity to learn coding when i was younger, without them all i was able to watch was the rainbow TOS logo :D !

Many thanks to crackers !
Tobe.

PS : (now let's try Ghouls'n'Ghost disk by Empire 8O)
step 1: introduce bug, step 2: fix bug, step 3: goto step 1.
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Atari scen has fallen

Post by illegal »

Ok i see all these things about cracking

as a goold old fashion ST Scene kind of celebrity, here is my reaction : and i think that i know really better than anybody over here of what i'm talking about ! : i cannot stand to see that crackers may be involved in the ST falling, without being very angry, because that means people are talking about something they do not really understand

cracking at this period was not intended to be some kind of "industrial, parallele commerce" : NEVER

some swappers were selling cracked games. However every cracker i knew was not making any benefit from this, and we were all against selling cracked software.

Spreaders that sold cracked games were really what we hated the most

Let me tell you what was really cracking on the ST Scene (hacking is the term used for credit card or telcom fraud, therefore hacking is completely different from cracking).

First, i say, and it is clear for me that I do not make the apology an i will never make the apoglogy of anything illegal and that would directly damage others, such as cracked software selling, credit card hacking, and such stuff

If that would have been so, every ST Cracker would have immediatly stopped any activity!

Cracking on the ST was something related to passion, a just cause, an intellectual challenge, a friends creative gathering

cracking was, i believe, necessary

ST Scene spirit, was at my level, between a bunch of friends... none of us had the money to get all the games. And in fact, spreading ou intros on the games were a way for us to spread our art. Because most of us wanted to spread their art

Every group started to spread their demos like this. EVERY.

our art was the intros, and our skill to remove the protections, like a chess game with the game creator himself

In fact we had many contacts in the software editors, some people getting paid very less, for very very much work also, some others did not care at all about st cracking coz they were making much benefits (sometimes even people were buying originals of games they loved, and that they discovered cracked...).

cracking was part of this world, and i believe it helped making the ST more alive than if everybody had to spend 80$ for each game...

It may be hard to understand, but cracking was part of the whole stuff

I believe ST falling is due to the stategy errors of Atari for competing with the PC. All people went on these platform, attracted by the increasing performance of PC.

however : PC standardization makes it less attractive for those who loved the poesy to code directly in assembler at the lowest level of the machine and bring the machine over its supposed capacities (remember Fullscreen on atari ? impossible was made possible!)

So coding/copy/cracking parties and editors, coders, crackers was the same small world (everyone knew each other) and let me tell you that it was simply POESY and one of the best period of many people's computer life

Everything else, even realistic and logical concerns about all that is bullshit. Only people who lived this period may understand

sorry to talk like an old , so old atarian

best regards to you all, and love is in every bit, and cracking is good for you...

Nowadays on PC none of my contacts nor me are interested on cracking for PC. Because the Poesy is not here.

I swear greed has nothing to do with the world of St crackers. It had to deal with generosity fore and foremost.
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Post by rb »

hi
illegal wrote:I swear greed has nothing to do with the world of St crackers. It had to deal with generosity fore and foremost
[/quote]

the greed discussed in this thread has nothing to do with greed of crackers but greed of "leechers" that collect/download every game they can get hold on whether they will ever play it or not.

i certainly don't comdemn crackers as such..

but you can bend it, shape it, twist it any way you like.. spreading copyrighted material (for free or for money) is a criminal offence.

the argumentaion can very well be transferred to the film pirates.. they can also say, well by us copying the dvd's and selling them for a fraction of the retail price will post the sale of dvd players..

if people want something desperately they get it anyway...

i agree that cracking a tough protection was certainly a challenge.. nothing wrong with it... but then the stuff got spread.. and there the pproblem started..

but apart from that.. i repeat myself, without the old atari cracker scene we wouldn't have this scene..

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Post by Ragstaff »

let's put it in other words... when a friend of mine knows i have stolen a cd from the local music shop he will probably fingerpoint at me.. and let me know what a bad guy i am... if the same friend would catch me downloading the same cd for free from a peer-to-peer system he would probably say... so what, no big deal... but in the end.. both are illegal, aren't they?
There's still a difference.
When you steal a CD from a CD-shop, you are hurting the people in that shop who paid for the stock and are trying to make a living. What you take, someone else loses.
With copying, you can take, but someone does not necessarily lose. You aren't stealing any physical thing that has been manufactured, paid for by a middleman etc.
You are stealing the artists work, but they might not be losing anything, because the person making the copy might never have brought a geniune copy anyway.
It's easy for people (myself included) to think to themselves "I'll just take a copy of this and no-one will know or care"... and you aren't really having a big impact on anyone. But when 200,000 people do it at the same time, it can start to be reflected in sales figures.

I can honestly say that I try not to pirate, but with the things I dopirate, I would not have bought a copy anyway. These companies have not missed out on any money from me. Maybe other industries missed out, because I was inside playing a game instead of down the street buying a drinks and food.

I did like the movie Resident Evil, which I had as a divx, so I bought a legitimate copy. Mind you, it was on sale for half price ;-)

Big companies are kind of equivilant to "rich Lords" in ancient times I think. All people ever hear about them is how much money they've made, or who they're trying to throw in jail. So there isn't exactly a lot of sympathy in the community for them or their agents. That's certainly true for me.
I feel worse seeing individuals ripped off.
Last edited by Ragstaff on Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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