Atari Legend is back! Updates thread...

[ST Graveyard]

Thanks guys
Don't worry about the font comments, I don't take it is negative. I take all your remarks into consideration to make the site better for everyone.

Oh, and sit tight! More cool stuff and amazing interviews are on the way!

Mr Did, my French is really bad, but love the look of you site!

Cheers,
Maarten

[calimero]

Very very nice GUI and excellent data!
I also think that long text should be in some other font - this one is to "boxy" (every later is fitted in almost perfect square so it is somehow same...).

Pardon me for question but I wonder if you are connected somehow to atarimania.com (I see only Marcer mention on both "about" pages)?
I read that you gave to ______ (someone) entire AL database and that he (they?) build atarimania.com (or atarimani.com exist before 2012.)?
Atarimania.com database continue it's own life (since 2012. there were new stuff added to that database) and did you continue to add new stuff to AL database since 2012.?
Did you use atarimania.com database for this new AL site?
Sorry for these question but I am really interested in history and I really enojoy in your "about" page (learn how this forum come to life)!

[ST Graveyard]

Hello Calimero,

Sadly, no, we don't use the AtariMania database, because AtariMania has the best database around. These guys know how I feel about it, but that is another story. Everybody is ofcourse free to do what they want...

Regarding the donation of the AL database. Well, I never expected Atari Legend to come back, but it did. In 2015 I got a lot of motivation to make something new, and now alost 3 years later I am still highly motivated to expand the AL project with other sections, merge with other sites and work on original content. (if everything goes according to plan, there will be much much more, but it will take some time) However, I gave the AL database to AM back then, because I did not want all the work that was done on the original AL project, to get lost. I believe that AM used our DB especially for the PD games. Which is a very good thing and I am very happy about that.

When I think about the past (and I have told this already many times before, so forgive my whining), the one thing missing in the Atari ST scene is 1 open source, mother of all databases, which people can use in their projects. This is what I hope to accomplish and that is why I will be working on an API in the weeks to come. At the moment you can already export parts of our DB to excel, xml and JSSON using the "Export" mode in the game section. This is still small and rudimentary, but I also want to expand on this as well. If people have other ideas or whishes, just share them and I will definitely take them into account.

I also hope to use other website's API's, like eg. mobygames, to help fill the AL db at one point in time. But I still have to learn all this stuff as I have currently zero experience with API. But heck, I have learned so much in the past 3 years regarding web dev, I'm sure this will not be a problem

Cheers.

[calimero]

Maybe not question for you but:
So AM exist before you share AL database with them?
Authors of AM is not ST (16bit) mainly oriented? 'Marakatti, Franck, Stefan L, Champions_2002' are only database data contributors, not developers of AM? (I already ask this question 5 years ago link but did not get answer. It would be cool if they put "history" page as you did on AL site!)


Regarding "1 open source, mother of all databases" ('to rule them all'... ) I think that main problem is: ** who will decide of structure of database ** ?

Many people would like to add new fields beside existing one. Who will curate this? (I try to solve this by using key:value pairs and let anyone to add new "key" as they want and needed). How you would solve this (adding new fields in database)?

[ST Graveyard]

Hello,

Yes of course AM existed before. I don't know the exact history and it is not my job to talk for the AM team. I know some of the AM DB guys helped a lot on the AL db, but got frustrated because of the lack of developments (I stopped working on AL around 2007 I think- we had a bit of a burnout) so they moved on to AM. Around 2011 I got interested again in retro gaming and after a while I started visiting Atari-Forum again and I got the ST virus again and I thought it was a good idea to donate the AL db since the project was dead anyway. I don't know the exact history of AM. The only reason I created a history page ... Well, I like this stuff and we are now almost 20 years doing these things. I wanted to give a clear view on how dead the project actually was, but even than, things can turn et voila! 2017 and we are back. Is this a good thing? That is up to you to decide

Regarding your question about expanding the DB. Well first, I am creating an HTML version of our technical analysis, you can see a first part of this here (you need to be logged in) : http://www.atarilegend.com/admin/admini ... al_doc.php
This is now only a very small part of our DB structure (actually only the new sections I created in the past year, these will be used in the future). I will be translating the complete DB structure in ER diagrams, and more explanations in text and much much more info. So everyone who is interested can view this. Secondly, we have an Atarilegend GITHUB with the complete source code and everything else. This also contains a very good issue/bug report forum (which is currently used by our team). This GITHUB page is now still private. But in the future I plan to make this public. Technically skilled people like yourself who are interested in this kind of thing can always post their ideas about new DB fields (well you can do this now as well of course using our 'bug report tile on the main site) and everybody who wants can join the discussion. When we plan to add new DB fields, this needs to be thought out thouroughly. We have a very clean (yet complex), completely normalized DB structure, and I like to keep it that way of course.

These are all ideas and things for the future that I have planned. But first I would like to work a bit more on the project as it is now, solve bugs, add some new stuff, before I open everything up completely and get swamped in work I want everything to stabilize a bit now for a month or 2, do some bug fix updates, focus a bit on content ... than come up with the next step ...

All suggestions welcome of course.

Cheers,
Maarten

[Marakatti]

Sadly, no, we don't use the AtariMania database, because AtariMania has the best database around. These guys know how I feel about it, but that is another story. Everybody is ofcourse free to do what they want...
Cheers.

I never had anything against using it But unfortunately even if i'm the main database builder of ST database, i don't own it or have an access "under the hood". I can only edit it. I've always told everyone they are free to use all the content from the ST database, i just don't have an access to it more than a normal visitor has.

Problems from our point of view:

1) An "open" database in a way AL is using it at the moment doesn't work for our purposes because we also cover commercial compilations, utilities and some classic demos. These are not available at AL.

2) We don't cover or offer cracked software unless it's a hack that has some way updated, like an STe-enchanted games (DM, Prince of Persia, Uridium...) . I have all the respect for crackers and am fully thankful for the work they've done and still do, as without them there would be no as much software as we do have today. But we want to get our material to be as close as possible to be unmodified. Can't use software screenshots for cracker messages for example.

3) All our databases needs to be compatible with each system (A2600, XL, Jaguar...) . Using an external "open" database for ST and "closed" ones for rest of the systems would result huge incompatibilites and problems to us. So the "open" database would have to be edited with our BackOffice as Franck doesn't let anyone to modify his code.

4) And the biggest problem: Open databases has a habit of going out of hand very quickly without extensive moderation. There will be errors, data will be inputted that doesn't rely on research but assumptions etc. It has been seen in a database like Mobygames. There are more unmoderated errors than correct information. So there has to be enough moderators who verify all the changes. I don't say here AM is bullet proof, there are still a long list of known errors i'm slowly fixing. But all the credits and information comes from a research of original game content, magazines, reviews, adverts, a current generation of retrobooks, contacting authors etc...

It's impossible for us to use the "open" version for AM unless the problems above has been solved.

So if you find a way to get the data i have nothing against using it Hell, i would be honored if AL sees it worthy of use. After all you are what reads in your title - Legends. But you need to ask the database from Franck.

Yes of course AM existed before. I don't know the exact history and it is not my job to talk for the AM team. I know some of the AM DB guys helped a lot on the AL db, but got frustrated because of the lack of developments (I stopped working on AL around 2007 I think- we had a bit of a burnout) so they moved on to AM. Around 2011 I got interested again in retro gaming and after a while I started visiting Atari-Forum again and I got the ST virus again and I thought it was a good idea to donate the AL db since the project was dead anyway. I don't know the exact history of AM course.
Maarten

Atarimania has been around since 2003. Work for ST database started in April 2008 when Guardians of the PaST started to see it's first signs of collapsing. At the time there was no updated ST database anymore so i contacted Franck who owns the site and voluntereed to build one that lasts at least a decade.

When i started there was some exported list of data, i don't know it's origins but it was a complete nightmare to use. Now looking back it would be better to start my own from scratch as the one i had to work with was full of errors.

Ofcourse it's still under construction and will be for many years because it's a very slow process to gather all the data and do extensive research. But in last 8 years it has updated almost daily. Only longer pause was when my daugher got her diagnosed diabetes type 1.

Maybe not question for you but:
So AM exist before you share AL database with them?
Authors of AM is not ST (16bit) mainly oriented? 'Marakatti, Franck, Stefan L, Champions_2002' are only database data contributors, not developers of AM? (I already ask this question 5 years ago link but did not get answer. It would be cool if they put "history" page as you did on AL site!)

AM covers all Atari machines for some degree. At the moment 4 of them are actively updated: 2600 (ROM Hunter), Atari XL (Allan), ST (Marakatti with help from Champions_2002 and Stefan_L) and Jaguar (Marakatti) Franck owns the site and concept and has coded everything from the website to the BackOffice tool we use for updating the database.

We used some AL data for PD games at some point, but the export function we had didn't work very well which is our fault ofcourse, not AL. AL has still the best PD games database, and AM is some 800 titles behind in that area.

[ST Graveyard]

Sadly, no, we don't use the AtariMania database, because AtariMania has the best database around. These guys know how I feel about it, but that is another story. Everybody is ofcourse free to do what they want...
Cheers.

I never had anything against using it But unfortunately even if i'm the main database builder of ST database, i don't own it or have an access "under the hood". I can only edit it. I've always told everyone they are free to use all the content from the ST database, i just don't have an access to it more than a normal visitor has.

My apologies, I want to very clearely say that in NO WAY the Atarimania guys are being protective of their data or prevented me from using it. That is absolutely not what I meant. I just have this crazy idea of trying to build an automized way of data transfer between projects from 1 main database. That is what I will be trying to do. So again, sorry, I don't mean to insinuate anything. As far as I'm concerned (and always have been), we are 1 big happy team of Atari lovers, make no mistake!

Problems from our point of view:

1) An "open" database in a way AL is using it at the moment doesn't work for our purposes because we also cover commercial compilations, utilities and some classic demos. These are not available at AL.

2) We don't cover or offer cracked software unless it's a hack that has some way updated, like an STe-enchanted games (DM, Prince of Persia, Uridium...) . I have all the respect for crackers and am fully thankful for the work they've done and still do, as without them there would be no as much software as we do have today. But we want to get our material to be as close as possible to be unmodified. Can't use software screenshots for cracker messages for example.

3) All our databases needs to be compatible with each system (A2600, XL, Jaguar...) . Using an external "open" database for ST and "closed" ones for rest of the systems would result huge incompatibilites and problems to us. So the "open" database would have to be edited with our BackOffice as Franck doesn't let anyone to modify his code.

Well regarding point 1, we of course have this in the pipeline. But it will be a long line First we are trying now to enhance our game structure regarding different release version (country versions and stuff like that). This is all a mess now. But we need to think, analyse, rethink ... this thouroughly as the DB structure needs to be clean and understandable for everyone.
I would also like to say that when using an API (the way I understand it), you decide which fields, which data, you want to transfer in your DB. So in that respect we are compatible. The DB structure can be totally different, you decide which data you want, and if a conversion is needed, you just build it (or in this case ... Frank builds it)

4) And the biggest problem: Open databases has a habit of going out of hand very quickly without extensive moderation. There will be errors, data will be inputted that doesn't rely on research but assumptions etc. It has been seen in a database like Mobygames. There are more unmoderated errors than correct information. So there has to be enough moderators who verify all the changes. I don't say here AM is bullet proof, there are still a long list of known errors i'm slowly fixing. But all the credits and information comes from a research of original game content, magazines, reviews, adverts, a current generation of retrobooks, contacting authors etc...

Of course you are totally correct here. But what I mean with an open DB is opening it up the other way around, from AL to others. Of course you need to have a team of people who add data, and what is added needs to be discussed. But lets face it, we have had this team of hardcore fans now for over 15 years. The main problem is that this team is spread over 2 projects!
Also, as you mention Mobygames. It could be a mess, I don't know. I do know that they now have an API which gives the possibility to transfer MOBYGames data to your DB. This is exactly what I find interesting. You use their API, choose which data you need. Transfer it in a fully controled and automized way into your DB and you check what has been entered. You go as far with all of this as you want. This is how I understand it. But again, I still have to figure this all out.

It's impossible for us to use the "open" version for AM unless the problems above has been solved.

So if you find a way to get the data i have nothing against using it Hell, i would be honored if AL sees it worthy of use. After all you are what reads in your title - Legends. But you need to ask the database from Franck.

It is really funny that you say that, because I think the same way but the other way around. The way it is looking now, I would be really happy if the game db at AL would at one point in time even came near the quality of AM. And you know my way of thinking, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm not doing manual data input in the AL db. Although admittedly, we have a team which is very motivated. And I'm happy with that. I do like to find ways to automize this stuff.

Ofcourse it's still under construction and will be for many years because it's a very slow process to gather all the data and do extensive research. But in last 8 years it has updated almost daily. Only longer pause was when my daugher got her diagnosed diabetes type 1.

I hope all is well with her and the rest of your family!

Maybe not question for you but:
So AM exist before you share AL database with them?
Authors of AM is not ST (16bit) mainly oriented? 'Marakatti, Franck, Stefan L, Champions_2002' are only database data contributors, not developers of AM? (I already ask this question 5 years ago link but did not get answer. It would be cool if they put "history" page as you did on AL site!)

AM covers all Atari machines for some degree. At the moment 4 of them are actively updated: 2600 (ROM Hunter), Atari XL (Allan), ST (Marakatti with help from Champions_2002 and Stefan_L) and Jaguar (Marakatti) Franck owns the site and concept and has coded everything from the website to the BackOffice tool we use for updating the database.

We used some AL data for PD games at some point, but the export function we had didn't work very well which is our fault ofcourse, not AL. AL has still the best PD games database, and AM is some 800 titles behind in that area.

[/quote]
I have to say ... I didn't know that and I even feel a bit sad you guys were not able to use the data I didn't know that AL, in its current state, had anything more than AM.

So in other words Makaratti, If I build an API, you can benefit greatly from this and have the PD data of AL transfered completely into AM! It would even be a cool project at one point in time to test out if my API code actually works!

Cheers,
Maarten

[Marakatti]

Sadly, no, we don't use the AtariMania database, because AtariMania has the best database around. These guys know how I feel about it, but that is another story. Everybody is ofcourse free to do what they want...
Cheers.

I never had anything against using it But unfortunately even if i'm the main database builder of ST database, i don't own it or have an access "under the hood". I can only edit it. I've always told everyone they are free to use all the content from the ST database, i just don't have an access to it more than a normal visitor has.

My apologies, I want to very clearely say that in NO WAY the Atarimania guys are being protective of their data or prevented me from using it. That is absolutely not what I meant. I just have this crazy idea of trying to build an automized way of data transfer between projects from 1 main database. That is what I will be trying to do. So again, sorry, I don't mean to insinuate anything. As far as I'm concerned (and always have been), we are 1 big happy team of Atari lovers, make no mistake!

Hey, no problems there mate Just wanted everyone to know that no need to ask for permissions to use ST stuff from AM. I know we share the same passion.

It is really funny that you say that, because I think the same way but the other way around. The way it is looking now, I would be really happy if the game db at AL would at one point in time even came near the quality of AM. And you know my way of thinking, I don't want to reinvent the wheel, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm not doing manual data input in the AL db. Although admittedly, we have a team which is very motivated. And I'm happy with that. I do like to find ways to automize this stuff.

It would indeed save a lot of time from both of us if AM commercial games and AL PD games could be combined to one.

Ofcourse it's still under construction and will be for many years because it's a very slow process to gather all the data and do extensive research. But in last 8 years it has updated almost daily. Only longer pause was when my daugher got her diagnosed diabetes type 1.

I hope all is well with her and the rest of your family!

Thanks We have recovered well and daily routines are pretty much as good as they can be in the situation. No staying awake at nights anymore which is luxurious

We used some AL data for PD games at some point, but the export function we had didn't work very well which is our fault ofcourse, not AL. AL has still the best PD games database, and AM is some 800 titles behind in that area.

I have to say ... I didn't know that and I even feel a bit sad you guys were not able to use the data I didn't know that AL, in its current state, had anything more than AM.

For some reason our system imported screenshots and programmer, but no gfx/sfx/musicians. So a lot had to be added manually, and in the end my focus was more on the commercial side as there's still a lot to do. But i'm still thankful that you shared it with us. I think Champions_2002 used it a lot and added the rest manually. But yes AL still has a way more PD games listed, although some of them were actually commercial like the famous medres tennisgame

So in other words Makaratti, If I build an API, you can benefit greatly from this and have the PD data of AL transfered completely into AM! It would even be a cool project at one point in time to test out if my API code actually works!

I've always felt the same from the very day you contacted me. We should work for one big project and not for two. I just don't know how to overcome the obstacles Maybe you could discuss this again with Franck to see if there's a way to do this together. You both are the experts in programming and know how these kind of things can be implemented.

[LynXX]

Thanks for the explanations!

use the contribute in the games detail pages of the main site.

I went to the control panel and saw options to contribute things here, that's why I was confused I guess.

Unfortunately the games contribution form is quite limited from what I understand. I was keen to contribute menus for instance (I saw there was a section about that in the control panel), is that something that's possible?

This GITHUB page is now still private. But in the future I plan to make this public.

Yes please! I'd love to contribute some code! Do you have an ETA for that, or is there a possibility to get "early" access to the code to contribute stuff, if you need help with something specific?

Finally regarding "open" databases, I think there's a misunderstanding about what "open" means. I think it just means "open access", as in the ability to get a raw export of the data and/or APIs to access it. It's not about opening the contribution to everyone without moderation. You can have a mix of both world, a well curated / moderated database that's in open acces, such as Demozoo or Stack Exchange

And that's definitely good, because it allows for integrating in other applications (e.g.. emulator frontends, ...), but especially because it will ensure that the DB will persist overtime, regardless of what happens to the actual sites themselves

[ST Graveyard]

Thanks for the explanations!

use the contribute in the games detail pages of the main site.

I went to the control panel and saw options to contribute things here, that's why I was confused I guess.

Unfortunately the games contribution form is quite limited from what I understand. I was keen to contribute menus for instance (I saw there was a section about that in the control panel), is that something that's possible?

sorry to confuse you with this. The menu section in the cpanel is indeed ready. However, this is created for the future. We plan to merge with Stonish.net at one point in time and link all menu data and downloads to the AL db. The actual menu section on the site still needs to be created. So to answer your question, no menus not yet. But Brume is always looking for menus (he is the author of Stonish.net and an admin here)

This GITHUB page is now still private. But in the future I plan to make this public.

Yes please! I'd love to contribute some code! Do you have an ETA for that, or is there a possibility to get "early" access to the code to contribute stuff, if you need help with something specific?

I will pm you.

Finally regarding "open" databases, I think there's a misunderstanding about what "open" means. I think it just means "open access", as in the ability to get a raw export of the data and/or APIs to access it. It's not about opening the contribution to everyone without moderation. You can have a mix of both world, a well curated / moderated database that's in open acces, such as Demozoo or Stack Exchange

And that's definitely good, because it allows for integrating in other applications (e.g.. emulator frontends, ...), but especially because it will ensure that the DB will persist overtime, regardless of what happens to the actual sites themselves

That is indeed what we are talking about and yes, I love demozoo and their way of working. Thank you.

Maarten

[ST Graveyard]

I've always felt the same from the very day you contacted me. We should work for one big project and not for two. I just don't know how to overcome the obstacles Maybe you could discuss this again with Franck to see if there's a way to do this together. You both are the experts in programming and know how these kind of things can be implemented.

When I start with the API, I will get in touch with you and Franck again.

Cheers,
Maarten

[calimero]

Marakatti & ST Graveyard - thank you for explanation!

btw it Franck member of this forum? Or he is not interested in 16bit Atari computers?

@ST Graveyard, what functions do you plan for API?

[ST Graveyard]

@ST Graveyard, what functions do you plan for API?

Calimero, it is still a bit early. We are working on the game structure now, once this is done, we will be back on the API story. I will keep you all posted.

[Brume]

A short announcement - we're just coming to release a very rare game (at least the Atari ST version is very rare).

Arachnophobia can be found here
http://www.atarilegend.com/games/games_ ... me_id=6380

Also STG wrote a full review of the game here
http://www.atarilegend.com/games/games_ ... iew_id=129

Enjoy and hope you'll like this game

[Marakatti]

Great work guys!

[Brume]

Thanks Marakatti. More to come very soon

[ST Graveyard]

A new review for the game EPIC has been added : http://www.atarilegend.com/games/games_ ... iew_id=130

Hope you like it

[ST Graveyard]

A new review fot he game The Blues Brothers : http://www.atarilegend.com/games/games_ ... iew_id=131

Enjoy.

[LynXX]

Great reviews!

Strangely, 2 games that brings back some memories, so I commented on both

[AtariZoll]

A short announcement - we're just coming to release a very rare game (at least the Atari ST version is very rare).
...
Enjoy and hope you'll like this game

Nice found. Really something unknown so far. I seen lot of box scans for PC release, and it is released for Amiga, CPC etc.
That initiates some thoughts: in 1991-1992 Atari ST was in decline, sales went down, including SW of course. So, ST version was probably poorly promoted, advertised. There are obvious indicators that graphic is straight conversion from PC, EGA mode. I looked in Steem Debugger and there is only one palette through whole game. So, colors look little strange for an Atarian eye. Worst is title pic, it's just ugly. I guess that in normal times they would take some time to correct palette for diverse pictures, stages. Sound samples go thru PSG, no STE DMA support - not surprise.
Game is not bad, although is little slow (C code ?). Especially considering that is based on movie. Commands are slow, and I barely found how to shot diagonally down. Amiga v. suffers from same EGA palette, but is little faster.
I guess that I will try it on Mega STE at 16MHz .

[ST Graveyard]

A short announcement - we're just coming to release a very rare game (at least the Atari ST version is very rare).
...
Enjoy and hope you'll like this game

Nice found. Really something unknown so far. I seen lot of box scans for PC release, and it is released for Amiga, CPC etc.
That initiates some thoughts: in 1991-1992 Atari ST was in decline, sales went down, including SW of course. So, ST version was probably poorly promoted, advertised. There are obvious indicators that graphic is straight conversion from PC, EGA mode. I looked in Steem Debugger and there is only one palette through whole game. So, colors look little strange for an Atarian eye. Worst is title pic, it's just ugly. I guess that in normal times they would take some time to correct palette for diverse pictures, stages. Sound samples go thru PSG, no STE DMA support - not surprise.
Game is not bad, although is little slow (C code ?). Especially considering that is based on movie. Commands are slow, and I barely found how to shot diagonally down. Amiga v. suffers from same EGA palette, but is little faster.
I guess that I will try it on Mega STE at 16MHz .

Interesting post. Thanks for this. I might add this to the review or game page if I may?

[AtariZoll]

...
Interesting post. Thanks for this. I might add this to the review or game page if I may?

Yes, you may add it, or parts of it .

[ST Graveyard]

Hello fans, we have a new interview up for you all to enjoy...
http://www.atarilegend.com/interviews/i ... view_id=27

[calimero]

I always get pleasent suprise when I open your new site: it is very good looking and astonishing organized

[ST Graveyard]

Thanks Calimero.

New review now online for Titus the Fox.

More cool stuff coming by the end of this month.

Cheers, Maarten