project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

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tenox
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

No, I'm not sure, I'm just setting right expectations for people. It would be good to test on HP and some other business monitors.

Apart from resolution the main problem is TTHIGH 1 bit display mode combined with rasters and the fact that LCD has it's own pixel raster. Moire is almost inevitable. So the KEY element here is the hardware anti aliasing that LCD panels perform. Some do it better some do it worse. So I have this expensive 30" Dell flat panel. I won't post pictures of it... ;)

NEC SXi can be set to such white balance, contrast and other setting that it IMO looks 100 better than SM or TTM "paper white" monitors.
Ektus wrote:
tenox wrote: Unfortunately these monitor settings are not available in any other LCD panel as far as I can tell. For this and the resolution problem, if you want to use the adapter and have a decent quality you better start looking for NEC 19" LCD1990SXi. You can get them on eBay for $50.
Are you sure? I've got a HP LP2065 (20" 1600x1200), and that one offers a bunch of manual settings for picture quality, including 1:1 (no scaling). It would be sub-optimal, though, as large parts of the screen would remain black.

I haven't got a TT, so no problem for me, but I would recommend checking business monitors from back then.

Provided it did work, that is. On the Falcon (videl) in 640x480, it does. On the Radeon (CTPCI) set to 1280x960-16@70Hz and @60Hz it falsely recognizes 1599x1399@60Hz :(

That's connected through DVI, though. Let's try VGA... Okay, it works. Moiré-free with big black borders for the real SM124 feeling :angel:

Screen diagonal is 512mm (20,1"), display size of 960x600 in 1:1 is 409mm (16,1").


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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

lp wrote:I have a TT030 with VME video card so I'm not really interesting in buying such a device, but I must say, impressive work! :cheers:
Thanks! :)

I made the device partially because I could not get a good VME card, partially because my slot is already occupied by Riebl and I want to run ASV with Xwindow.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by wongck »

Wow.... nice hardware. !!
Something that was missing for so long.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by Crash »

I might buy two - I've been wishing for a way to enjoy using my TT again.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

alanh wrote:Can I ask the price on these ?

Thanks!
I'm working on this. The price currently is about 120 Euro per piece.
Last edited by tenox on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by frank.lukas »

... black and white is wonderfull repro and nice and very fast with NVDI under TOS on a Atari TT !
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

Okay some more good news!

So I went today to test the device with Spacedcowboy. We hooked it up to a random cheapest and crappiest LCD panel ever. At first there were some vertical bars, but upon changing the aspect mode and hitting auto adjust couple of times we go a perfect picture. You really do want a monitor with 1:1 scaling, scaling off or expansion disabled. Otherwise the letters will be blurry.
test1.jpg
test2.jpg
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by Spacedcowboy »

Just to confirm that the LCD is indeed the cheapest and nastiest possible model from Frys... I think I paid ~$30 for it in an end-of-line sale they were having. I originally bought it for some FPGA interfacing which used standard resolutions and image quality wasn't important - it was just there for logging.

Having said that, I was mightily impressed with static imagery. It was clearly workable-with and a huge improvement over the colour modes that the TT was previously outputting. I have one of the recommended monitors (a NEC LCD1990SXi) winging its way towards me as I type but the arrival date is sometime between yesterday and next Wednesday. My plan was to wait until that arrived then post some pictures ...

The LCD doesn't cope so well with moving imagery, it blurs and ghosts. I'm reasonably sure thats just the LCD though, since it did the same thing when I had the FPGA outputting data too quickly. I'll report back when I get the LCD1990SXi. Since I want it for programming work, this isn't too big a deal for me anyway...

Overall, seriously fantastic :)

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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by Spacedcowboy »

So the NEC monitor turned up, and I spent some time tuning the parameters - initially it looked awful, but after some hints from tenox, and some further playing around I've got a rock-solid stable display, with each pixel visible and no blurring or aliasing. It's phenomenal; there's no better way of saying it.

The snapshot below doesn't do it justice I'm afraid, apart from to prove that I'm no photographer :( In person it's clear as a day. Solid blacks are saturated and, well, black. There's no "residue" of the black area interfering with anywhere else on the screen, whites are clear, and pixel borders are perfect to my eye.

What is interesting is that my settings are slightly different than Tenox's - and in fact his settings look awful on my display. Primarily it's a difference in the fine-control setting though. The main parameters are the same.

I might try and get a better image than this because it really doesn't do the display justice, but for what it's worth...

Image

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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

Oh please, please try to get a better picture. :D Try to put the phone / camera on something steady instead of your hands. Also try getting it up close to the pictures instead of trying to capture the whole screen at one, which never works.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by mdivancic »

I can't wait for these to become available!
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

Soon. I have 25 PCBs printed and this is the longest part. Assembly will take just few days. I'm working on a PayPal checkout and a 3D printed case. Both are just good to have I guess.
mdivancic wrote:I can't wait for these to become available!
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

I was trying to come up with a best way to represent how it looks like, but this is an impossible task. If the camera is too far I get moire. Closer I get pixelization. If it's too close then TT HIGH suddenly becomes a color mode. There is no way to represent sharpness and contrast of the B/W mode correctly.
about.jpg
desk.jpg
pixels.jpg
Anyway I'm being told that the first batch of 25 units will be available in about a week from now.

:cheers:
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by Musicianaa »

Just checked the update. What a progress !! Super job Tenox.
So as I mentioned earlier. I am in for one.
:)
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

tt-big.jpg
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Last edited by tenox on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by alanh »

Cool, that's gotta be the first induction powered TT !!

I guess it's wifi keyboard/mouse too.

Look no cables :-)
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

Definitely not a first one! I took inspiration from Atari official photo:
atari_tt.jpg
I think I cut out the keyboard cable though. And it's too yellow. My TT and NEC are actually nicely white.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

Anyway the itself adapter:
onkeyboard1.jpg
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Last edited by tenox on Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by Spacedcowboy »

So, here's a couple of closer-in pictures:

First, with a macro-lens on the iPhone. This is actually showing the real quality of the representation of full-on RGB (white) and nothing (black) pixels...

Image

... and then a more zoomed-out version of the same screen:

Image

This is possibly slightly *too* zoomed in. The black boxiness you can see in the solid white areas isn't apparent to the eye (white areas look white). What you're seeing in the photo is the pixel lattice in the display being picked up by the iPhone camera.

Again, after tuning it (and so far the display has kept its tuned parameters between power-cycles), the display is simply phenomenal.

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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

HA HA HA

Stone Age in TT HIGH. The pixels are actually 4x4 compared to ST HIGH. But it's playable :)
stoneage.jpg
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by frank.lukas »

Thanks to OverScan for the great SM124Emulator ...
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

frank.lukas wrote:Thanks to OverScan for the great SM124Emulator ...
Actually the SM124 emulator won't work on my TT. I'm getting "TOS version not supported" error.
Stone Age worked natively.
photo 1.JPG
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by frank.lukas »

... this is bad !

I use TOS 3.06 (GERMAN), what TOS Version you use ?

Supported TOS Versions ---

UnterstÅtzte TT-TOS-Versionen
-------------------------------

Version Datum LÑnderkennung
-----------------------------
3.01 08.08.90 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK
3.01 29.08.90 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK, Frankreich
3.05 05.12.90 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK, US
3.06 24.09.91 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK, Frankreich,
Schweden


You can switch to the TOS 3.06 UK Version without Patches !?!
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

If you look one post up there is a screenshot of Sysinfo. I use 3.06 US.

From the list looks like 3.06 is not supported. Maybe if I softload UK version?
frank.lukas wrote:... this is bad !

I use TOS 3.06 (GERMAN), what TOS Version you use ?

Supported TOS Versions ---

UnterstÅtzte TT-TOS-Versionen
-------------------------------

Version Datum LÑnderkennung
-----------------------------
3.01 08.08.90 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK
3.01 29.08.90 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK, Frankreich
3.05 05.12.90 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK, US
3.06 24.09.91 Deutsch, deutsche Schweiz, UK, Frankreich,
Schweden


You can switch to the TOS 3.06 UK Version without Patches !?!
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Re: project idea: ECL signal adapter for TT-High...

Post by tenox »

Update on the project:

A batch of 25 units has been made. All it requires now is some logistical work which I'm doing.

- Testing the units before shipment - 0% complete.
- Website with paypal checkout - 99% complete.
- 3D printed cases - 75% complete. Will send pics in couple of days.
- Still waiting for shipment boxes, screws and some minor bits, 75%.

I should be ready for orders in about a week time.
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