GOEX for ST in the making

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Sowden
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by Sowden »

This looks like a neat device, and way more sleek than a Gotek looks like. Is OSD being planned for this in the future?
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by Jeff_HxC2001 »

susher wrote:Actually FlashFloppy itself doesn't use HxC format for the floppies if run in native mode.
Interesting to learn that it doesn't support HFE format in "native mode". How are supported copy protected disk images then ?
susher wrote: There *IS* a compatibility binary you can put onto the drive to allow it to operate in an HxC-like way, however, but it's optional (and I prefer not to use it).
This "compatibility binary" is just a rebranded hxc file selector. (sources forked from this : https://github.com/jfdelnero/HXCFE_file_selector)
susher wrote: In native mode it uses raw disk images, which suits me as I swap my drive between multiple platforms, most of which are not supported by HxC.
Seriously ? Which ones aren't supported exactly ? Can you be more specific ?

FYI About the usage, the HxC firmware is working the same way. This "native mode" is just the "normal mode".
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by Jeff_HxC2001 »

stormy wrote: I'm seriously considering ordering two, one for my falcon and one for TT. I've always been wary of replacing my floppy drives though. I keep thinking that I am missing a piece of the puzzle. Like, if I want to write some files to a floppy on my PC, I use my usb floppy drive and simply it works on the Atari. If I want to do the same with a flash floppy, I don't quite understand the process, do I run an emulator and write a floppy image then put on the usb? Or am I missing the point. Is this mainly for just downloading large archives like TOSEC and putting them on a USB. I keep getting confused as to the utility of these flash floppy devices. I am guessing it is *most* useful for standard STs running games directly from disc, not for application or desktop purposes.. So probably not useful for a falcon or tt? Damn, I get so confused.. please help me understand :)
With the HxC firmware you can copy your files directly to the stick. A file image is then automatically created with your files. This way no need to deal with files images, just copy your files/folders on the stick.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by stormy »

Interesting, thanks for the info.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by Alphabis »

My questions are as follows: I read roughly and to write short the terms "FlashFloppy is preinstalled and make a donation to the author"! I believe that this is somewhat misleading the buyer by adding, in commercial terms, an added value to the basic price of the item, when this firmware is already free. Personally, it is a form of misleading advertising. Why, in this case, not indicate the existing options like the HxC of Jeff, initiator of the project, even if it is chargeable? I do not find that very fair! Then, since there is only one facade model available, can we not think of the owners of 3D printers by offering them sources so that he can switch it to the computer of their choice? Finally, can the Goex be functional, like the Gotek, in an external drive?
- Atari Falcon 030/megaSt + 520 St/Stf/Ste/Stfm - 1040 STf/Ste
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by mpattonm »

Short answers are: I do not force anyone to make a donation, I encourage people to consider making one. There is a difference between the two isnt it? Unlike you I find more then fair to publish such a notice on a product page. Another point is - I do not support HxC installation on GOEX. It was never qualified and I do not intend to qualify it. I do not suppose HxC author is going to support whatever issue possibly shows up on GOEX/HxC combo and I have no means to debug it either. GOEX is and will be FlashFloppy device and I do not plan to promote HxC in any way. End of story - find it fair or not.
As for the mount 3D design files: I do not plan to release them at the moment, sorry. GOEX is an internal device and it makes a little sense to use it as transferable between different platforms. I should mention it is currently available for Atari ST (short FDD button chassis), Amiga 500,600 and 1200. Atari ST long button version is to be released shortly, and generic flat faceplate version will be available soon too. I can also eventually release 3D model of GOEX itself so DIYers can design their own brackets, should they want.
Lastly, there is no reason why GOEX should not work as an external floppy drive if set up with correct device ID and wired correctly but please understand I have no capacity to support you in building one, so you are on your own.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by mpattonm »

Sowden wrote:This looks like a neat device, and way more sleek than a Gotek looks like. Is OSD being planned for this in the future?
Yes, take a peek at Amiga mount version: https://centuriontech.eu/product/goex-on-pills-drive/
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by mikro »

Guys, you're splitting hairs here. Is the firmware free? Even more, it is public domain. You can even build your own FlashFloppy company if you want.

I also don't follow the HxC comments, according to https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy/wi ... ct-History it seems the author of FlashFloppy made the firmware completely on his own. Using a file selector from HxC is hardly being a "initiator of the project".

So please stop with this nonsense before mpattonm decides to drop the whole thing and moves on to a friendlier community.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by thedavegray »

I bought one of these and now have it fitted. Really nice bit of kit and the mapping to the existing floppy drive screws is
100% aligned. Well worth the money.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by MiggyMog »

This is a really neat option compared to hacking up a regular Gotek case. I would have bought one immediately( the price as it is very reasonable) if I had not just bought and modified 3 gotek drives already and I also bought one of Zaxxon's Microgotek not long before setting this. I thank everyone who has had a part in creating such new and exciting hardware for our platform. Having bought other items from centurion I would encourage anyone thinking about this option to go for it!
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by Alphabis »

mpattonm wrote:Short answers are: I do not force anyone to make a donation, I encourage people to consider making one. There is a difference between the two isnt it? Unlike you I find more then fair to publish such a notice on a product page. Another point is - I do not support HxC installation on GOEX. It was never qualified and I do not intend to qualify it. I do not suppose HxC author is going to support whatever issue possibly shows up on GOEX/HxC combo and I have no means to debug it either. GOEX is and will be FlashFloppy device and I do not plan to promote HxC in any way. End of story - find it fair or not.
..
Hello,
My question was not expressly for the purpose of polemics. I had doubts and your explanations have the merit of to be clear. It's perfect. I encourage people like you, whatever the positions of each other, who keep our old computers alive. I am also thinking of acquiring a Goex for one of my STs.
Thanks again ! :wink:
- Atari Falcon 030/megaSt + 520 St/Stf/Ste/Stfm - 1040 STf/Ste
- Amiga 500 (Vampire)/500+ stock/500 stock rev 5 - 6 et 8.0
- Amiga 1200 128 Fast Ram/ 1200 stock/ 600 HD
- Amstrad cpc 464+664+6128+464plus+6128plus
- Oric Atmos/C64/Atari 800/Ti99/Sinclair (all modèles &PC200)-
...I stop here. there's too much !
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by ijor »

Are the schematics available? (Hope mpattonm is still around to answer)
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by mpattonm »

ijor wrote: Mon Jul 20, 2020 7:33 pm Are the schematics available? (Hope mpattonm is still around to answer)
Hi, I do not plan to release schematics any time soon. Maybe same day, but not today.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by ijor »

mpattonm wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:54 pm Hi, I do not plan to release schematics any time soon.
Oh, I see. And I guess firmware sources aren't available either (I didn't realize before that the hardware is rather different and can't run the original FF firmware). Which means Goex is based on open source projects but it is actually closed source. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, I understand FF license allows that. But I think the remark is important because many people might misunderstand and think that the project is open source, at least I did. If I'm correct, this also means, among other things, that users won't be able to upgrade the firmware directly from FF new releases.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by simonsunnyboy »

ijor wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:51 pm If I'm correct, this also means, among other things, that users won't be able to upgrade the firmware directly from FF new releases.
In that case, my interest on this one drops to 0.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by mpattonm »

ijor wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:51 pm ...and can't run the original FF firmware...
Of course it can and it does.
ijor wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:51 pm ...this also means, among other things, that users won't be able to upgrade the firmware directly from FF new releases.
Your assumption, that you present as fact, is simply wrong.
Last edited by mpattonm on Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by ijor »

mpattonm wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:21 pm
ijor wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:51 pm ...and can't run the original FF firmware...
Of course it can and it does.
Oh, I'm sorry if I was wrong. I apologize.

But then I don't understand why you don't release schematics. What's the point? IMHO, you are only hurting your own customers. If the design is compatible with available sources, it is almost trivial to reverse engineer the circuit for somebody that wants to copy it; especially when it can't be much different than an original Gotek circuit. So at the end of the day, only the end users including your customers would lack the schematics.

Furthermore, I'm also not sure how much motivation would be to copy your design, at least the circuit. The main advantage of your product in relation to a "regular" Gotek is the form factor that can replace an original ST drive seamlessly, not the circuit. So I'm not sure there would be much point in copying the circuit. There might be other advantages as the ones you mention on your website. But again, almost none of them are relevant to the circuit that you are trying to protect by not releasing the schematics. Your product might even have much higher quality than a "low cost" Gotek, but of course that is something that can't be just "copied".

Ok, enough for my rant. Apologize again that I thought it was not 100% compatible with the FF firmware.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by mpattonm »

I still fail to understand your motivation. Would you please tell me why do you demand schematics to be released, exactly?
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by stormy »

ijor wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:18 am
mpattonm wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:21 pm
ijor wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:51 pm ...and can't run the original FF firmware...
Of course it can and it does.
Ok, enough for my rant. Apologize again that I thought it was not 100% compatible with the FF firmware.
I think you need to understand some things: centuriontech has had its products copied by China and then stocked in 'reputable' european retro stores in the past, so maybe this can help you understand their position?
And secondly, no standard customer needs the schematics, I bought one and put it in my TT - it is brilliant, it works, why do I need schematics... just arguing for no good reason.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by ijor »

mpattonm wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:55 am I still fail to understand your motivation. Would you please tell me why do you demand schematics to be released, exactly?
I'm not "demanding", of course. It was actually more a recommendation, not a demand.

I know many users would not care, but others will. Certainly it is important for me and, if possible, I try to avoid products without schematics. Exactly why I would like the schematics? Well, I can think on many good reasons why somebody could want and use the schematics:

Say, I might want to make a mod to the board. Or I accidentally I bricked it. Or it is not working for some reason. Or I might want to use it on other system and I might need to know the electrical characteristics of the interface such as pull up values, buffers, etc. Or I might want to try my own firmware customization ... I'm sure you could come up with even more reasons to have a schematics.

Most people with technical background do like to have the schematics of the products they own. Even when they probably might never use them. Actually, I'm pretty sure you like yourself products with schematics available, don't you?

Btw, I learnt that the Goex comes with the floppy connector oriented like a regular Gotek, and not like an original ST drive. I suppose you have your reasons for this. But for a really "drop in" and seamless installation, IMHO, the connector should be reversed. At least I recommend to add a warning to the product page that for ST systems the cable must be twisted, and then a longer cable (or an extension) might be needed.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by ijor »

stormy wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:51 am I think you need to understand some things: centuriontech has had its products copied by China and then stocked in 'reputable' european retro stores in the past, so maybe this can help you understand their position?
It was obvious that he was trying to avoid his product being copied, and it isn't difficult to guess he has some bad experiences in the past.

But again, in this particular case, not releasing the schematics will not help at all. The Goex is not much more than a Gotek in a different form factor. You don't need schematics to copy this product. Board files and mechanical drawing is another thing, but schematics are not relevant. And I'm not saying "not much more than a Gotek" in some kind of derogatory way. It might be much better in quality, e.g., but again this has nothing to do with schematics.
And secondly, no standard customer needs the schematics, I bought one and put it in my TT - it is brilliant, it works, why do I need schematics... just arguing for no good reason.
Well, in first place ST users are not standard customers. This is not the PC or gaming market. A good portion of retro users are technically oriented one way or the other. Actually, lots of retro products are released only as DIY. And yes, many times you don't need schematics. But many times you do. Your Goex worked just fine, I'm glad for you. In other forum a user is having trouble with a Goex he recently purchased. Probably the Goex is just fine, but the point is that we could help him more if the schematics would have been available. Actually that's why I came here to ask for the schematics in the first place.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by stormy »

It's got a damn warranty. Stop being unreasonable. He should ask centurion tech for support not ask for help on a forum.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by mpattonm »

ijor wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:17 pmIn other forum a user is having trouble with a Goex he recently purchased. Probably the Goex is just fine, but the point is that we could help him more if the schematics would have been available. Actually that's why I came here to ask for the schematics in the first place.
All right, I am not going to challenge your intentions any more then. Not that I will change my mind regarding my assets.
Anyway, could you please point me to the forum post/person in question so that I can help him? Case closed.
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by MiggyMog »

Were you maybe planning to open source pasti so that the flashfloppy firmware could support the format Ijor? This along with support for MSA would be awesome ( sources for that are out there which it maybe an idea to ask Keir to support?).
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Re: GOEX for ST in the making

Post by ijor »

stormy wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:41 pm It's got a damn warranty. Stop being unreasonable. He should ask centurion tech for support not ask for help on a forum.
Calm down man. Nobody is being aggressive here, so why are you?
A warranty is a replacement for schematics!? Are you serious? And I am the one being unreasonable.

Do you think the world ends in Europe? Shipping something like a Goex from my country to Europe, either for repair or for replacement, will cost more than a new unit. Let alone the time it would take. Let alone that I might need to spend a full day filling forms or I might be charged again for import customs.

Of course that we recommended the user to contact Centurion. But official tech support doesn't replace the support you might get on a forum (neither the other way around, of course).
mpattonm wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:50 pm Anyway, could you please point me to the forum post/person in question so that I can help him? Case closed.
Here: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/30840 ... nt=4589568

Btw, I suspect the Goex is just fine. I didn't imply it was your fault at all. And btw2, I hope you didn't get the wrong impression I had any intentions to copy your product. I don't sell any Atari products at all.
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