Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

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talrek
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Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by talrek »

Hi,
i already post on this forum months ago about the same problem. So i decided to do more tests.
I made a new pcb for this interface : http://www.spiny.org/atari/popsel/

I tried on several STE and with different Toses and never had a problem.
Now i tried on two different MegaSTE and the interface is not recognized, it boots directly to the gem. As if the ACSI pin 10 was not connected...
I know everyone keep me telling it works on MegaSTE. So i must have forgotten something.
Is there a jumper on the MegaSTE ? Does the SCSI controller interfere ? I tried to remove it without success.

Thank you for your help, i really don't understand why it doesn't work, i'm turning crazy [smilie=greencolorz4_pdt_08.gif] [smilie=greencolorz4_pdt_08.gif] [smilie=greencolorz4_pdt_08.gif]

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by joska »

talrek wrote:Now i tried on two different MegaSTE and the interface is not recognized, it boots directly to the gem. As if the ACSI pin 10 was not connected...
I know everyone keep me telling it works on MegaSTE. So i must have forgotten something.
Maybe "everyone" can tell you how they got their IDE adapter to work ;) How did you connect this adapter to your MSTE?
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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by talrek »

Hi,
i connected it on top of the CPU. and then a 2"1/2 CF-IDE adapter.
For the drivers i bought from P.Putnik's site. As i said it works well on STE.

Thank you for your help.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by bid »

2016-12-23 17_10_25-SHONYATRIC - SHOP.png
Just a quick question? .... Is this the same interface this is in this shop here? http://www.shonyatric.cz/shop/index.php
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
My company website http://www.thebigconsultant.com[/i][/color]

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by czietz »

I assume you already checked that all pins make good contact -- given that this can be a little fiddly on top of a PLCC CPU?

Is the interface recognized when you load a driver -- P.Putnik's or HDDRIVER -- from floppy?

A difference between MegaSTE and STE is that the MegaSTE can run with 16 MHz. I don't know which speed is default after power-up. If it's 16 MHz: Does anything change if you set the CPU clock to 8 MHz?

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by czietz »

bid wrote:Just a quick question? .... Is this the same interface this is in this shop here?
No, as it says on the screenshot that interface is for a MegaST. The STE and afaik also the MegaSTE don't have the Megabus expansion connector.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by talrek »

czietz wrote:I assume you already checked that all pins make good contact -- given that this can be a little fiddly on top of a PLCC CPU?

Is the interface recognized when you load a driver -- P.Putnik's or HDDRIVER -- from floppy?

A difference between MegaSTE and STE is that the MegaSTE can run with 16 MHz. I don't know which speed is default after power-up. If it's 16 MHz: Does anything change if you set the CPU clock to 8 MHz?
Hi,
i checked all pins make contact. The interface is not recognized when i use either P.putnik's or HDDRIVER from floppy. I tried with TOS 2.05 and Tos 2.06 there are no differences.
Also i used a CF with the driver installed on it, so it boots when i use it on my 2.06 STE computer. The mega STE doesn't detect the deviceas if the interrupt signal from the acsi pin10 was missing.

I already tried 2 months ago the trick for the CPU clock, but i will try it again ;-)

Thank you. :D.
bid wrote:2016-12-23 17_10_25-SHONYATRIC - SHOP.pngJust a quick question? .... Is this the same interface this is in this shop here? http://www.shonyatric.cz/shop/index.php
No it is not, i use it on STE and Mega STE so it is PLCC68 socketing.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by joska »

talrek wrote:Hi,
i connected it on top of the CPU. and then a 2"1/2 CF-IDE adapter.
The only IDE interface I know of which is supposed to work on the MSTE is Alan Hourihane's (see http://atarikit.co.uk). That one connects to one of the PALs when installed in the MSTE.
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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by czietz »

Alan also wrote about his interface:

Out with the logic analyzer. Mmm, yep, things go crazy. After a few hours of debug and pulling out the MegaSTE schematics, it's all to do with the MegaSTE's 16MHz switch and cache logic. :evil:

A few trace cuts on the prototype IDE board and solders to one of the PAL's and we're in business again. Basically the IDE board has to run at 8MHz as with other peripherals connected to the bus.
(from http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=100)

So it might indeed be related to the 16 MHz clock as I suspected.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by AtariZoll »

Mega STE works at 8 MHz by default, and always after reset, when hard disk boot happens, so it is not problem for sure.
I had IDE IF in Mega STE, and don't remember any special problems with it. There is switch to 8MHz, cache off in driver, in case of Mega STE, so it will work well even if CPU is set to 16, and cache is on.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by joska »

AtariZoll wrote:Mega STE works at 8 MHz by default, and always after reset, when hard disk boot happens, so it is not problem for sure.
I had IDE IF in Mega STE, and don't remember any special problems with it. There is switch to 8MHz, cache off in driver, in case of Mega STE, so it will work well even if CPU is set to 16, and cache is on.
Well, there is clearly a problem in this case... Are all MSTE's the same?
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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by AtariZoll »

There is no any reason why it, or any standard (so logically IDE IF like it is in Falcon and ST Book) should not work in Mega STE, when it is properly connected. SCSI controller will not interfere . As said, default clock is 8 MHz. Driver SW must switch off cache during transfers, because if read from disk goes in cached space it will cause data error (cache "thinks" that there is still old data).
I don't think that there is any difference between Mega STE revisions what affect IDE upgrade. Early ones were with TOS 2.05, SD floppy, later with 2.06 and HD floppy, but it is easy to upgrade older ones by simple drive change + DIP switch set, ROM change/reprogramming.
Would be good to see where all connections were made, talrek.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by troed »

AtariZoll wrote:but it is easy to upgrade older ones by simple drive change + DIP switch set, ROM change/reprogramming
... and some soldering.

https://blog.troed.se/2016/07/14/mega-s ... -upgrades/

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by Arne »

AtariZoll wrote:Driver SW must switch off cache during transfers, because if read from disk goes in cached space it will cause data error (cache "thinks" that there is still old data).
Does this mean that the HW cache logic sees the whole addressable space (i.e. 16MB) as cacheable area? How about reading from I/O space at $FFxxxx? Do I need to switch off cache if I want to re-read data from an I/O port? Would be poor HW design, wouldn't it? Or do I miss something here?
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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by AtariZoll »

troed wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:but it is easy to upgrade older ones by simple drive change + DIP switch set, ROM change/reprogramming
... and some soldering.

https://blog.troed.se/2016/07/14/mega-s ... -upgrades/
In my case it was not necessary. So, there were at least 2 revisions of older Mega STE boards, it seems.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by AtariZoll »

Arne wrote:
AtariZoll wrote:Driver SW must switch off cache during transfers, because if read from disk goes in cached space it will cause data error (cache "thinks" that there is still old data).
Does this mean that the HW cache logic sees the whole addressable space (i.e. 16MB) as cacheable area? How about reading from I/O space at $FFxxxx? Do I need to switch off cache if I want to re-read data from an I/O port? Would be poor HW design, wouldn't it? Or do I miss something here?
No. Cache is only for RAM. Cache would not work well with IDE port, of course, since it reads from same address again and again. May be same with parallel port in some cases. Cache design is very good.
It is best to turn off cache and 16 MHz back to 8 to avoid possible confusion when SW and disk read accessing same area, especially when hard disk driver using blitter. And 16MHz most likely will have bad timing on IDE port.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by czietz »

I also noticed that on the MegaSTE the CPU-side /DTACK-signal is generated solely by PAL U6. Since I see no pull-up resistor in the schematic: Can anyone doubtlessly confirm that this is still a tri-state or open-drain output? If the PAL on the other hand actively drove DTACK high, the IDE interface would only work as long as the buffer for /DTACK (74HC03) had a stronger drive level than the PAL. (And obviously it's not good if two push-pull outputs work against each other.)

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by alanh »

That's exactly the problem. DTACK needs to be dealt with differently on the MegaSTE.
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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by AtariZoll »

You need to connect to XDTACK, and not to CPU directly.
Happy New Year Atarians :D
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by talrek »

Happy new year 2017 for all of you !!!!!
So i'm going to test and i'll give you the result.

if i understand well i should use the XDTACK signal from PAL U6 (pin 9) or PAL U11 (pin 21) or PAL U12 (pin 16) instead of pin 10 from the 68000.

I'm very excited about trying it ! Thank you !

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by talrek »

Hi ! i'm back to thank you guys, everything works fine now !!!! a great thank you ! Now my MegaSte has ide too :angel:

Happy new year once again :cheers:

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Re: Problem with Popsel/Ppera IDE interface and MegaSTE

Post by talrek »

Hi again, thank you again for all your replies. i encounter still one problem.
Everything just work fine a 8Mhz, but when a turn it at 16Mhz with Xcontrol, then the MSTE freezes at boot, i don't even go to the gem.

I thought that may be the logic was too slow (it was a gal16v8d-25) i changed it for a -7, but it is always the same...
I really don't understand, frequency should not be a problem, but obiouvsly there is something... I have the last driver (bought 2 months ago)... i don't see what is not working.

...

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