Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

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Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by Newsdee »

I just saw this tweet and I got curious:
https://twitter.com/sentientsixp/status ... 32160?s=20

Is there anybody who only has a MiST and never upgraded to a MiSTer? If so, why?
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by Total Eclipse »

Yes.

One of the things I love about my MiST is that it's an all-in-one solution. No need to source components, no need for extra boards to add functionality, and no need to find a case to house it all.

I still connect to my gaming TV using a SCART lead, or to a smaller monitor via VGA. Occasionally I've also connected to a CRT, just for the hell of it.

In addition, I still prefer to use classic joysticks over game pads for computer games, and again, there's no need for additional boards to support this. I've even recently ordered a new RetroRadionics 9 pin joystick specifically for my MiST.

The MiST is pretty much plug and play, no need to do anything more than load a few cores, ROMs and game images to a SD card.

I've never felt any need to consider a Mister. With the possible exception of a NeoGeo core, there's nothing the Mister offers that MiST doesn't (and I can get a NeoGeo fix via a Raspberry Pi anyway).
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by slingshot »

meetoo

I enjoy hacking on MiST.

I don't like some aspects of MiSTer.

Some people (like the one in the tweet) suggests that jump into MiSTer or you're stupid. I don't like this mentality also (especially I guess this guy never wrote a single line of code).
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by squid4 »

Having very recently moved from a MiST to a MiSTer I would say stay with the MiST unless you absolutely need a MiSTer. My MiST broke so I didn't have any choice as I still wanted an FPGA solution. I've had my MiSTer DE10 Nano for a week but I still can't use it properly as I'm waiting for the various add-ons, that make it useable, to arrive. It feels very much like a kit project and not having a decent case, like the MiST, is a problem for me as I don't really want a bare PCB. I'm going to try and fit into the MiST metal case as it's still a great looking case, particularly with the skin I've wrapped it in. There's a lot to initially setup and configure. By comparison to the MiST, where you stick a core and some ROMS on an SD and it just works. Just to clarify I'm CRT only for retro.

There's no doubt the MiSTer is a powerful FPGA with great support and many developers, so for now it's the best FPGA solution. But it's a subsidised device and could be pulled at any time. If you want to play extra emulators like Neogeo, the RGBPi is a great & cheap solution to use in parallel with the MiST.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by krupkaj »

I also use just MIST beside my original hardware and it is OK for me.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by vebxenon »

Yes. MiST is a solid board, not a kit, with a great research behind and excellent components. It's still alive , community is great, leads the developments, has more cores, and I use it more than the old original hardware. :cheers:

No need to update for kits using Altera subsidized educational boards + addons confusing the community with its name.

Yes, I think X68000, Mega CD or Neo Geo on FPGA are oustanding and I appreciate the developpers, but I think that if there's a new update, a "MiST 2" it will be better a real new board. And there is still too much life in our beloved board in computer, arcade and console sides.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by vebxenon »

slingshot wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:20 am meetoo

I enjoy hacking on MiST.

I don't like some aspects of MiSTer.

Some people (like the one in the tweet) suggests that jump into MiSTer or you're stupid. I don't like this mentality also (especially I guess this guy never wrote a single line of code).
:cheers: :cheers:
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by DrOG »

I own a MiST and a TC64 parallel. The latter has a PC core, called Next186 ported by Alastair M. Robinson:
https://opencores.org/projects/next186_soc_pc
Otherwise the MiST is better in my opinion, I like it's robust metal case and minimalist design.
I don't plan to buy a MiSTer, the only considerable reason would be the HDMI output, but MiST's YUV and SCART capable RGB out is fine.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by Newsdee »

I own all of them (MiST, TC, MiSTer, and even ZxUno). They all work fine, albeit I must admit my TC became nothing else than a C64 SD card and VGA adapter, and I didn't do much with the ZxUno other than try its main Spectrum core.

My MiST still sees a bit of use as a secondary machine (if I want to turn my room into a mini arcade for instance). I appreciate that Jotego is porting cores to it, and all the work done by slingshot, gehstock, gyurco and others in refining the existing cores. MiSTer has a bunch of "quality of life" improvements which is good for new users, but it's true that it looks a bit more daunting - like building a PC from parts - compared to the nice box of MiST.

I think Lotharek teased a "MiST mini" at a lower price point (which I think would make it more competitive vs. MiSTer) but I guess it never went forward.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by slingshot »

Newsdee wrote: Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:31 pm I think Lotharek teased a "MiST mini" at a lower price point (which I think would make it more competitive vs. MiSTer) but I guess it never went forward.
Until you can get a 500$ board for 130$, I guess there's no point to release anything new :)

For the MiST's current price, it would be possible to build a more powerful board with recent components - that means an upgraded FPGA, more recent ARM, maybe another RAM chip (an additional DDR2 would be nice), but it still would not beat the MiSTer's 250$ chip.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by DanyPPC »

I prefer the original MiST, and I own a TC64 and MiSTICA too.

If in a future a MiST2 will be released surely I buy It, but don't bother me with the MiSTer... I dislike It.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by 8bitguy1 »

MiST user here. I find it’s just easier to use. MiSTer doesn’t offer enough advantage to justify having both. Especially when my use case is 90% Atari ST and 10% Amiga. For games I have a Raspberry Pi.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by sebdel »

I don't like the idea to use a really powerful dev board to workaround having to properly engineer an efficient solution. I'd be there day 1 for a Mist2 though.
I also have no interest in the cores that runs on Mister and not Mist. I'm here for the Atari ST core.

All that being said, if someone comes up with a fully functional Falcon030 core, I'll buy whatever it runs on. No questions asked.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by cjug74 »

Yes, mainly because I bought it first and it is very good for my core interests. For the moment there are not enough reasons for me to buy a Mister kit.

As some have mentioned, if there would be a Mist 2, I would be very interested in it.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by Wayne123 »

sebdel wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:56 am

All that being said, if someone comes up with a fully functional Falcon030 core, I'll buy whatever it runs on. No questions asked.
I have a Replay Arcade FPGA board and have been waiting for that myself, I even have the 060 daughter board, last time I asked about it I was told Replay version 2 might be needed, I think I have $600 in this thing so I probably should have just bought a real Falcon.

Here is the link to their forum asking about the Atari core https://www.fpgaarcade.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=491
It is a nice FPGA board but the target seems to keep moving over there, I am an old man now so maybe not in my lifetime.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by slingshot »

Wayne123 wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:24 pm
Here is the link to their forum asking about the Atari core https://www.fpgaarcade.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=491
It is a nice FPGA board but the target seems to keep moving over there, I am an old man now so maybe not in my lifetime.
The Replay board promised much, but seems lack of developers let it fall behind.
If the new Replay2 could have a similar firmware interface to MiST, then lot of cores could be ported without serious efforts. Also I think no need to copy-past or fork every piece of code, one source tree could serve more boards, allowing more development in less time. Unfortunately it seems every board owner is building his own castle only, cooperation is not a word they want to hear.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by Wayne123 »

The Replay Arcade board at least has RTG graphics in the Amiga core, Maybe the new stand alone Vampire board will have an Atari core.
I have a MiST for the ST core and a MiSTer besides the Replay so I am not buying another FPGA board without seeing an Atari 030 core.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by jotego »

As a developer, MiST is faster to develop. Without all the extra stuff that slows down compilation in MiSTer. MiSTer framework is full of features. All undocumented and changing. So MiST offers a simpler environment in that sense too.
Yet MiST at least solves the important issue for a developer : get the system ROM loaded. Other simple FPGAs like ZX-UNO did not offer a convenient solution for that so I never developed for it even though I had one.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by eeun »

It just works. Simple as that, really. I bought it for the ST core, which has reached a point that even if further development stopped I'd be entirely satisfied. No regrets about the purchase. I do dabble in some of the other cores, but MiST has become my replacement ST.

I don't understand the occasional posts here that describe the MiST as "obsolete" in favour of Mister, etc. If you want a multi-platform device, RetroPie (which I also use) IMHO seems a better option.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by darwinmac »

I do not have one yet, but eeun’s reason is why I am planning to buy one. It just works. I do not have time for a kit and I am planning to use classic joysticks so I want the DB9 connectors.

I already have an XEGS so the MiST will primarily be my ST. The old core was not exact enough. The current core (MiSTery) looks good enough even if development stopped. That is what I was waiting for before buying a MiST.

The Atari800 core will be nice for those homebrew titles that use more than 64k. If it can magically allow me to play PAL-only titles on my NTSC flatscreen TV (very doubtful), that would be fantastic.

The Amiga and C64 cores are icing on the cake. I only owned an Amiga 600 for about 6 months so there is not much nostalgia there.

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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by Newsdee »

I agree that MiST still has plenty of life on it - especially when there are many systems that could still fit in the Cyclone III FPGA - but I'm a bit surprised at the suggestions on using a RPi as alternative for bigger cores. That does not have any of the benefits of the low latency from an FPGA, and to be honest, is quite fiddly to setup compared to either a MiST or MiSTer.

From the other comments, is my understanding right that if MiSTer were to be made into a dedicated PCB like MiST, then you would be more interested in it? I certainly understand the appeal of fully open hardware (it is what made me try a ZxUno), and it would make the board much easier to put in a nice case (if e.g. all ports are well placed like MiST).

Sooner or later some other PCB will come along; here's hoping that all the OSS cores can converge into shared code one day, so they can be well preserved by transcending the specific hardware platform.

Edit: full disclosure, I still use my MIST with CRT displays; but I was drawn to MiSTer since I wanted a way to play in HDMI screens and get the more advanced cores such as the 486 (which was available early on).
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by sebdel »

Yes, a dedicated PCB with everything on board would go a long way. Also, something that is very important to me that I just realised the Mister has not: passive cooling is a must.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by Newsdee »

It doesn't really require active cooling, many people use it without a fan (just a heatsink) and it works fine. I believe it mostly helps with cores that barely fit the FPGA (that may have metastability issues and so be more sensitive to glitches due to heat), but otherwise the chip never gets that hot and it doesn't affect operations.

The other thing that people may not be aware of is that several console cores were tested with MDFourier (e.g. Genesis, PCE, PCE CD, NES); so there's quite a bit of confidence that the sound is genuine to the original consoles. Not sure if the same was done with MiST, but if not that testing would be a good way to certify the implementation quality: http://junkerhq.net/MDFourier/
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by slingshot »

Newsdee wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:00 pm The other thing that people may not be aware of is that several console cores were tested with MDFourier (e.g. Genesis, PCE, PCE CD, NES); so there's quite a bit of confidence that the sound is genuine to the original consoles. Not sure if the same was done with MiST, but if not that testing would be a good way to certify the implementation quality: http://junkerhq.net/MDFourier/
Depends on the phase of the copy-pasting of the sound hw code. Plus in the Genesis core, the original code from Jotego is used, not the forked and diverged version.
It happens in the opposite direction, also, many graphics code is more advanced in MiST, e.g. the Genesis VDP (on MiSTer, there's that adaptive blending, on MiST cycle-exact sprite and background map fetches with correct left and right border opening), plus the Atari 2600 (which was updated recently on MiSTer). Actually this copy-pasting is boring and ridiculous.
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Re: Do you still use a MiST exclusively?

Post by jotego »

slingshot wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:08 pm It happens in the opposite direction, also, many graphics code is more advanced in MiST, e.g. the Genesis VDP (on MiSTer, there's that adaptive blending, on MiST cycle-exact sprite and background map fetches with correct left and right border opening), plus the Atari 2600 (which was updated recently on MiSTer). Actually this copy-pasting is boring and ridiculous.
It is. That's why I have always argued strongly against my cores being copied into MiSTer-devel. MiST/SiDi/MiSTer versions of my cores are identical except for platform specific stuff (HDMI output, etc.)
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