MiST in 2020

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darwinmac
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MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

I have read the Wiki and tried to read the forum here, but I have been unable to find answers to some "newbie" questions:

I am only interested in the following cores: MiSTery, Atari800, C64, and Amiga (in that order)
1. Can I use any VGA (LCD or LED flatscreen) monitor in combination with the built-in scan doubler in order to run ST and Amiga games? The Wiki only mentions about 5 compatible displays. However, that appears to be the displays that were tested when the MiST was originally released. What is the situation today? If the scan doubler creates a compatible signal, is there a lag?

2. For the MiSTery core, can I use a US TOS in order to get 60Hz? I am concerned that 50Hz (PAL) will be a problem on a US (NTSC-based) monitor.

3. If I am only looking to run some old commercial games and current homebrew games, is the MiSTery core (if it works on an NTSC system) compatible enough to run games correctly? Demos only interest me by the fact that getting them to work tends to increase compatibility.

4. Does the latest version of Ppera's driver (Dec 2019) work on the MiSTery core? The wiki only refers to the original core and says "some versions are compatible". I am aware he is not on Atari-Forum anymore. However, most of the games I wish to run are hard-disk adapted games from him. It makes the most sense to me to use his hard-disk driver. For my proposed MiST use, HDDriver would be complete overkill and more expensive.

My main concerns are regarding VGA monitor compatibility (would a VGA -> HDMI adapter give me more compatibility?) and whether the MiST (under the Minimig or MiSTery cores) work best in PAL mode. I saw videos regarding the Minimig core where they talk about changing timing on the monitor. However, the videos are probably 5-6 years old. I am interested in the situation today.

I can contact foft on AtariAge to find out how compatible the Atari800 core is on the MiST. Currently, I am spoiled by having an XEGS that I simply plug into the AV ports on a Samsung TV and it just works. I am hoping I could have a similar experience with the four cores I mentioned on a MiST. It would be nice to play some old ST games that I remember from BITD, but Hatari is not as feasible with my current desk space and laptop.

Thanks for your time.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by DrOG »

Hi!

FPGA is not software emulation, but a hardware reimplementation, which follows the structure and function of the original computer as close as possible. So no lag, only if you want to use some kind of external active video converter.

1. Most cores are capable to output scandoubled and interlaced RGB and YUV signals as well. PAL machines/cores set to PAL system will output 720x576@50Hz over VGA, which is generally not compatible with most monitors. But there are lots of exceptions, see here:
http://15khz.wikidot.com/

Or you may use a VGA->SCART cable and interlaced signal with this passive adapter, if your screen has a SCART input:
https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... ScartCable

Or, as a third alternative, you can use a component cable as well:
https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... PbPr_Cable
This has the benefit that it's worldwide spread and can transmit interlaced & progressive signals also.

Fourth option is to set the cores to NTSC, which results 640x480@60Hz output, and it's natively VGA-compatible.

2-3. MiSTery core is near 100% compatible not only with games, but most demos as well, thanks to slingshot. You may use NTSC, PAL or monochrome video output (848x480@72Hz) also.

4. I have no idea, I'm not familiar with Atari ST in such depth.

5. Atari800 core is compatible enough, and has a lot of video modes, see readme:
Press F11 and use these keys to switch video mode. They are applied immediately on pressing them. Note that is temporary and not saved to flash or the SD, so if you press one by mistake there is no harm done.

P: PAL
N: NTSC
R: RGB
A: SCANDOUBLE
D: DVI
H: HDMI
V: VGA
S: SVIDEO
C: COMPOSITE
Z: Toggle composite sync
X: Toggle scanlines

So for example, to get the Eclaire into VGA 60Hz mode then:
press and release F11 to get into the menu
press and release N to get into NTSC (60Hz)
press and release V to get into VGA
darwinmac
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

Thanks for the quick reply. I assumed slingshot would have to answer the hard disk driver question. If I can set all of the cores to NTSC, that sounds like the easiest approach for me.

I am aware of that 15Hz wiki. I would really prefer to stay with a modern monitor and not be limited to monitors that are probably only on eBay now.

Since I am in the US, SCART input is not really an option for me.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by DanyPPC »

I use the component output, and I'm very happy !
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by slingshot »

As I don't have a hardware test lab at home, I cannot tell you which display is compatible, and which is not. I have two LCD monitors (a very old, and a new-ish with even HDMI input next to a VGA), both are working fine. However I think a 4:3 display is preferable for these old machines, and you cannot really get a brand new 4:3 LCD display.

About PPera's HDDriver, I don't have it, but it's reported to work. I still use the good old AHDI.

Upd.: XEGS have composite video output, which is achievable with a cheap converter, but it has the worst picture quality. RGB/YPbPr are much better.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by sardine »

https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-board/wiki/Displays

I just got an Eizo Flexscan M1700 from Germany delivered for just over £20

look on eBay it works with everything ive tried no issues at all with scandoubler, all imaged centred etc.

I tried 15khz it shown a stretched image and a sync warning so not 15khz

very happy with it.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

Thank you all for the replies. This does give me an idea of where MiST is in 2020. I am aware that composite input is the lowest quality. However, for 8-bit gaming, it’s more than sufficient.

@slingshot - I realize you do not have a hardware testing lab. I was just trying to find out how easy it would be to attach a modern monitor to your core and get a working ST core. Thanks for all of the work to create the MiSTery core.

I see the comments regarding component input. I have not seen too many modern monitors that have that input. There may still be some.

I am used to using a 16x9 monitor set to 4x3 mode for my current 8-bit gaming. I was more concerned about getting display errors because of an incompatible signal.

Since I live in the US, shipping any monitor from Europe (even if it worked here on 120v) would be very expensive.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by 8bitguy1 »

About PPera's HD Driver:

I asked him this very question last week and he told me it works but the SatanDisk version works best (vs. the UltranSatan Version I was also inquiring about). I suggest you ask him directly... I haven't had time to try it yet but I did buy it from him, if he says it works, you can take that to the bank. It'll work.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by slingshot »

Component input is more like a TV-thing than a monitor. There are some TV/monitor combos which have both component and VGA, too. I think if a monitor has VGA, then it should work more or less.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

8bitguy1 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:44 pm About PPera's HD Driver:

I asked him this very question last week and he told me it works but the SatanDisk version works best (vs. the UltranSatan Version I was also inquiring about). I suggest you ask him directly... I haven't had time to try it yet but I did buy it from him, if he says it works, you can take that to the bank. It'll work.
That is good to know. I assumed that he would not want to give any MiST compatibility promises since I assume he is programming his driver for actual Atari equipment.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by Eero Tamminen »

I think best thing to use for Atari ST/STE/etc harddisk access would be latest EmuTOS version because EmuTOS has builtin ACSI, IDE & SCSI support (in 512k version), i.e. you don't need separate drivers. However, I'm not sure how compatible MiSTery is with EmuTOS (some earlier MiST versions had problems with it).
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by czietz »

Eero Tamminen wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:58 pm I think best thing to use for Atari ST/STE/etc harddisk access would be latest EmuTOS version because EmuTOS has builtin ACSI, IDE & SCSI support (in 512k version), i.e. you don't need separate drivers. However, I'm not sure how compatible MiSTery is with EmuTOS (some earlier MiST versions had problems with it).
One of the many advantages of EmuTOS compared to Atari TOS is that is still in active development. If there any issues with MiST and/or MiSTery that can be or need to be fixed on EmuTOS side, please let us know on the development mailing list: https://sourceforge.net/p/emutos/mailman/emutos-devel/. (We would need someone with a MiST/MiSTery willing to test any changes, though.)
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

Re: EmuTOS

I agree that it is in active development. However, as someone looking to just play a few games, I found EmuTOS to be a bit slower and have some compatibility problems in the past.

I am concerned that developers of old games used undocumented features or locations with their games. I admit that I haven’t tried it in a while (though I usually download each new release).

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by slingshot »

512k ROMs are not supported currently, how would the address decoding work for them? I assume it is E00000-E7FFFF.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

Where can I find out if the four cores I am interested in support component input? I looked more closely at my Samsung TV and it does support component as well as composite input.

The four cores I plan to use are:
MiSTery
Atari800
C64
Minimig

Thanks for your help.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by DrOG »

All of them has component output, except the Atari 800 core.

Quote from the YPbPr cable's official MiST Wiki ( https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... PbPr_Cable ):
Cores supporting YPbPr:
Menu
Amstrad CPC
Apogee
Apple ][
Atari 2600
Atari ST
BK0011M
Colecovision
Commodore 16
Commodore 64
Commodore VIC-20
FPGAGEN/Sega Genesis
FPGAPCE/PC Engine
Minimig/Amiga AGA
NES
SAM Coupe
Specialist
Vector 06C
ZX Spectrum
... and many more
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

Thank you. I had forgotten about that information since, at the time, I did not think my TV had component output.

I know the Atari800 core has changed from the version that is in the MiST repository. Hopefully, this has changed.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by DanyPPC »

I have an Atari 800 core which support Component output, thanks to Mark Watson.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by slingshot »

Recent cores in the original place have component support:
http://www.64kib.com/autobuild/
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

Thank you very much for the confirmation of component video support. That’s the last piece of information I needed.

I tried looking on Mark’s site but I didn’t see component video mentioned.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by darwinmac »

Sorry. I just have one more question. I thought I could purchase a VGA to component cable and it would just work. However, I saw elsewhere here where someone made a VGA to component converter box.

If I use the scan doubler to output an acceptable VGA signal, can I simply buy a VGA to component cable from Amazon and be done with it? Or is there some other work that needs to be done in order for the MiST to show component video on my TV?

Thanks for answering my many questions.

Bob C
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by slingshot »

A simple circuit is needed to mix the sync on the green (Y) input:
https://github.com/mist-devel/mist-boar ... PbPr_Cable
I'm not sure what's in these pre-made cables.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by slingshot »

slingshot wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:37 pm 512k ROMs are not supported currently
I was wrong, 512k ROMs (including EmuTOS 512) work well.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by eeun »

1) I'm using VGA, and in Canada. 50/60Hz both work. You may get slight differences in screen position, and may find choosing between 50/60 gives a better view. No lag. I have a lot of used/salvaged monitors and have yet to find one that doesn't work with MiST at all. Any Samsungs I've tried are great.

2) MiSTery runs at 50/60 fine for me. UK/US TOS work, and there's some extra tweaks in the menus for screen position and frequency. I mainly use TOS 2.06 and 1.62 for gaming.

3) Compatibility is fantastic. If you read through the MiST forum you'll see a lot of ongoing work to iron out small bugs because the big ones are fixed.

4) I've used Atari's HD driver, I think I have a couple HD images that use ppera's IDE driver.

I think you're overly concerned about VGA compatibility. It works better than the impression I think you got from the wiki. I mainly use the ST and 800 cores, but will occasionally run the NES, Sega, arcade cores. They just work. I think you'll be happy with it.
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Re: MiST in 2020

Post by 8bitguy1 »

eeun wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:02 pm
I think you're overly concerned about VGA compatibility. It works better than the impression I think you got from the wiki. I mainly use the ST and 800 cores, but will occasionally run the NES, Sega, arcade cores. They just work. I think you'll be happy with it.
This is the big thing! I found for everything but Minimig, just works out of the box (minus some picture positioning on some monitors). Minimig is not much more complicated and its really only an issue for non-game applications. Gaming works out of the box well. If you need higher resolution on the Minimig you just have to try a few different modes. For me, this forum was quite helpful with assistance.
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