520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

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kodak80
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520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by kodak80 »

I have dumped this disk with Kryoflux, SupercardPro and Greasewaezle flux boards but am unable to write any of these dumps back to a real floppy disk and have an the new disk with an exact flux copy. They all write the dumps back incorrectly and the disk does not work!

I have uploaded the dumps to the Stream Repository: https://mega.nz/#F!9RJixYhI!ozJAY06nUpYj2vzpuWORRg to see if anyone can help with why this is not working?

File is saved as "Atari 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1[KF,SCP,GW](kodak80).7z"

The original disk works fine and is clean.

If anyone can get this to work, please let me know.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by ijor »

Please dump and upload somewhere the non working disk(s).

You didn't specify which tool you used to write back an with which method, and if you used the same drive, both for creating the dump and for writing back.

The most common write back failure is something related to the index hole. If the disk has data under the index, the write back software needs some smartness to locate a suitable write splice point. This usually requires a high level analysis. I'm not sure any of them can do that reliably from a flux level image.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by kodak80 »

Hi Igor

I have tried this with a couple of different floppy drives and did use the same drive each time to dump and write it back to the new floppy disk.

I used each software tool to write back its own dump. So Greaseweazle to write the GW SCP dump back, Kryoflux DTC to write back KF RAW and SuperCard Pro to write back SCP Pro dump.

Copy dumps are now in the Stream Repository and file is called "Atari 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 NONWORKING COPIES[KF,SCP,GW](kodak80).7z"

Supercard Pro was the best copy disk but still not an exact copy of the original.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by ijor »

As I suspected, the disk wasn't formatted aligned to the index hole position and has data "under the index" on most tracks. As I said, I'm not sure those write back tools can deal with that. The SCP copy seems to be the best (should I say, less bad) because it seems you used a write back method that attempts to locate a suitable write splice point, but it doesn't quite perform that successfully.

The ideal solution would be to perform a high level analysis, determine the best write splice point for each track, and pass that information to the write back tool. AFAIK, there is currently no tool that can do that automatically for ST disks.

You might have some luck rotating each track manually. I believe the SCP software allows that. But you would need to do that individually for each and every track, or at least for most of them.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by JimDrew »

You can write this image (any image actually) back with SuperCard Pro using the editor/analyzer by reading each track and setting the start/end of flux and writing the track to another disk - this has to be done track by track. ...OR, you can do the same to the image now! I added this ability with the last version of the software. You can load an image file and "rotate" the track and save that data back to the file. Once you are done rotating the tracks, the disk image would then be index aligned and would write correctly (you would need to select the "override" box and set the mode to INDEX). Now, if the program does something like timing the index pulse to the start of a sector, then index aligning the tracks won't work - but you can always duplicate every disk using the manual method with editor analyzer. To do this, just set the FLUX END to be the proper location in the 2nd revolution. Don't set a start flux (you want that to be the beginning of the track) This keeps the index reference for the track and stop the writing in the proper location.

Looking at the disk again it seems that this would be very simple for the SPLICE mode to handle on it's own. Did you try writing it back using SPLICE? If that doesn't work, then this gives me a good example to use because it should write back no problem with SPLICE mode (without rotating the tracks).
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by Jeff_HxC2001 »

ijor wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:09 pm As I suspected, the disk wasn't formatted aligned to the index hole position and has data "under the index" on most tracks. As I said, I'm not sure those write back tools can deal with that. The SCP copy seems to be the best (should I say, less bad) because it seems you used a write back method that attempts to locate a suitable write splice point, but it doesn't quite perform that successfully.

The ideal solution would be to perform a high level analysis, determine the best write splice point for each track, and pass that information to the write back tool. AFAIK, there is currently no tool that can do that automatically for ST disks.

You might have some luck rotating each track manually. I believe the SCP software allows that. But you would need to do that individually for each and every track, or at least for most of them.
FYI the hxc software allows you to rotate the tracks (in the track/disk viewer).
And the automatic write splice detection / placement is in the pipe :)
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by kodak80 »

Rotating the tracks has helped to get the game booting now but now gets stuck accessing tracks 78.0 and if it passes 78.0 gets stuck accessing 79.0

I can sometimes get the game to load fully but it is random and not very regular so we have moved forwarded and I have a floppy disk that at least now loads the splash screen and music track. It prompts to press fire button but then gets stuck and I am guessing that this is track 78.0.

The SCP tracks can be rotated in the SCP tool Disk Analyzer/Editor as advised by Jim and I now know how to do this so have learnt some useful information. :D
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by JimDrew »

I would try a media test on the disk you are trying to use to write the game to. Tracks 76-79 are notorious for failing because of defective media. Only 5% of the brand new in the box disks that I have will pass a media test. The failed disks start showing bad from tracks 73 and higher, with the last few tracks being the most common.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by dlfrsilver »

JimDrew wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:40 pm I would try a media test on the disk you are trying to use to write the game to. Tracks 76-79 are notorious for failing because of defective media. Only 5% of the brand new in the box disks that I have will pass a media test. The failed disks start showing bad from tracks 73 and higher, with the last few tracks being the most common.
I do not agree with this Jim. Experience until now showed me that most of the time, the disks have to be cleaned. Without this, there is no point saying let use KF, SCP or any other hardware. The output will be poo.

Since the dump has been done with KF, i'm going to check if the dump is good or not. If it's good, i'll send Kodak the corresponding IPF, if not, back to the blackboard and to the cleaning.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by dlfrsilver »

@Kodak :

My analysis :

Track 46.1 and 49.1 are bad on this 520 STE pack of the game Indiana jones and the last crusade.

I was right, this disk needs a bit of cleaning in order to make a good dump, and from there, an IPF or an HFE v3 file with protection intact for gotek drives.

The good point is that the protection is correctly imaged. I have been able to successfully encode it.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by JimDrew »

That original image worked fine in STeeM. The rotated version I did no longer works on tracks 78/79 so I must have goofed something on those tracks during the rotate (rotated too far).

Cleaning a disk will help if there is mold or some other external debris on the surface of the disk. I have only had to clean a handful of disks out of tens of thousands that I have successfully dumped... but I always clean the heads before every dump. I have dozens of boxes of brand new (still sealed with shrink wrap) that have been stored in a climate controlled environment, and every time I opened a new box to test I might get one disk out of every two boxes that passes the media test on the last few tracks. If you go and inspect (write/read) the track you can easily see that there is an oxide issue. Cleaning the disks doesn't help. It actually makes it worse by removing the oxide from the surface. I am not sure what the difference is between 3.5" and 5.25" disk manufacturing, but I have never come across a 5.25" disk that fails, unless it is physically damaged from heat or scratched from debris stuck to the head.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by dlfrsilver »

JimDrew wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:58 pm Cleaning the disks doesn't help. It actually makes it worse by removing the oxide from the surface. I am not sure what the difference is between 3.5" and 5.25" disk manufacturing, but I have never come across a 5.25" disk that fails, unless it is physically damaged from heat or scratched from debris stuck to the head.
Sorry, i can't agree with this. I'm currently the leader on the disk cleaning aspect, and cleaning is the key.

It's up to the point that i am currently able to not only clean but also do perfect dumps from disks that would be impossible to exploit to most users or contributors.

As soon as my job permit, i will check every dumps made for the Atari ST, but i know for a fact that many of them are wrong or bad !

We cannot afford to keep crap or poo disk dumps. Those must be removed, same for those that have viruses on them.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by dlfrsilver »

ijor wrote: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:09 pm As I suspected, the disk wasn't formatted aligned to the index hole position and has data "under the index" on most tracks. As I said, I'm not sure those write back tools can deal with that. The SCP copy seems to be the best (should I say, less bad) because it seems you used a write back method that attempts to locate a suitable write splice point, but it doesn't quite perform that successfully.

The ideal solution would be to perform a high level analysis, determine the best write splice point for each track, and pass that information to the write back tool. AFAIK, there is currently no tool that can do that automatically for ST disks.

You might have some luck rotating each track manually. I believe the SCP software allows that. But you would need to do that individually for each and every track, or at least for most of them.
this is an anomaly, because this game use a standard 10 sectors x 512 bytes per track, and an EDC sector change protection on track 79.0 (a short track).

This is a case where we should not have data under the index. The normal thing with index would be to have a part of the last sector above the index.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by ijor »

JimDrew wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:43 am OR, you can do the same to the image now! I added this ability with the last version of the software. You can load an image file and "rotate" the track and save that data back to the file. Once you are done rotating the tracks, the disk image would then be index aligned and would write correctly (you would need to select the "override" box and set the mode to INDEX).
Jeff_HxC2001 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:09 am FYI the hxc software allows you to rotate the tracks (in the track/disk viewer).
And the automatic write splice detection / placement is in the pipe :)
It one sense it is a very nice feature. But, OTOH, rotating the tracks changes the characteristics of the original disk, and in some cases this might even make it fail.
kodak80 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:52 pm The SCP tracks can be rotated in the SCP tool Disk Analyzer/Editor as advised by Jim and I now know how to do this so have learnt some useful information. :D
Please keep that "modified" image to yourself. Or at least label it clearly that it was modified.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by ijor »

dlfrsilver wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:20 pm Track 46.1 and 49.1 are bad on this 520 STE pack of the game Indiana jones and the last crusade.
I was right, this disk needs a bit of cleaning in order to make a good dump, and from there, an IPF or an HFE v3 file with protection intact for gotek drives.
The good point is that the protection is correctly imaged. I have been able to successfully encode it.
There are indeed "damaged" sectors on those tracks, but that seems to be a mastering/duplication defect because the same errors are present on other Pasti images, and it doesn't look like they were taken from the same physical disk. So cleaning probably will not help, at least not in this case.

No idea how those errors actually affect the game. At least one of the "damaged" sectors is read, so probably something will be corrupt but it might be non fatal (such as a small graphic glitch).

It should be possible to recover the data from other versions of the game. There is a version with two single sided disks, instead of one double sided as this one.
dlfrsilver wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:27 pm this is an anomaly, because this game use a standard 10 sectors x 512 bytes per track, and an EDC sector change protection on track 79.0 (a short track). This is a case where we should not have data under the index. The normal thing with index would be to have a part of the last sector above the index.
Well, I'm not sure "anomaly" is the right term. It is not common, but there are other titles that were duplicated like that, without index alignment and for no apparent reason.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by JimDrew »

I agree that rotating the tracks is definitely not the correct way to handle this. You can of course write one full revolution followed by the next revolution and terminate the writing in the track gap. That is how the SPLICE mode in my software works. This keeps the track alignment (in reference to the index pulse and other tracks) correct. However, in this particular case there is a condition (the track gap being a huge section of invalid flux) that causes the write to turn off too soon and so you can lose the last few bytes of the last sector of each track. I will correct that and release the new version with several new neat features like the split track mode where you can import/export individual tracks as files that can be used to repair damaged images.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by kodak80 »

Cleaning the disk did not help. Tracks 46.0 and 49.0 are still the same regardless of cleaning so as this matches the STX dumps then may well be a manufacturing defect. When the original disk loads, there are some graphical corruptions on the first couple of screens before the game action starts.

The rotated track SCP will not be shared as this was just to test writing back. If Jim gets the fixes done in the SCP copier then this should help and this disk will be good to test the updates.
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Re: 520STE Turbo Pack Disk 1 Indy cannot write back to floppy

Post by Jeff_HxC2001 »

ijor wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:21 am
JimDrew wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:43 am OR, you can do the same to the image now! I added this ability with the last version of the software. You can load an image file and "rotate" the track and save that data back to the file. Once you are done rotating the tracks, the disk image would then be index aligned and would write correctly (you would need to select the "override" box and set the mode to INDEX).
Jeff_HxC2001 wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:09 am FYI the hxc software allows you to rotate the tracks (in the track/disk viewer).
And the automatic write splice detection / placement is in the pipe :)
It one sense it is a very nice feature. But, OTOH, rotating the tracks changes the characteristics of the original disk, and in some cases this might even make it fail.
Sure rotating the tracks is not the solution here since this is a part of the protection.
But the write splice detection will be there to avoid these tracks rotations.
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