CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

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CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Jookie »

Hello all,

some of you mentioned that you would be interested in the SCSI version of CosmosEx for your TT or Falcon, so I've created 3 poll questions in the buyer's section of the CosmosEx - I need the opinion of all the people who would be interested in this. If you are interested in this, or know someone who is, make sure to register (tell him to register) and answer those 3 poll questions, so I will get an idea...

The poll is about:
- data throughput - the current ACSI version has limit somewhere at 1.2 MB/s, but the TT & Falcon users might feel that this is too low for them, so I need to know if they would be or wouldn't be satisfied with such throughput. A device with this throughput could be done in few months, but if majority of people wouldn't be interested in the device with this low throughput, a greater development effort might be needed (different microcontroller, possibly Raspberry Pi replaced with something different), and I'm not sure if I could manage that

- floppy emulation - it's currently only DD (720 kB), Falcon & TT users might request HD (1.44 MB), or otherwise they might not be interested in it - or they don't care much about the floppy emulation, so they wouldn't mind it's only DD. I don't know - you tell me. Again, switching to HD might not be possible with the current setup (or it might be, but I didn't get to trying that yet), and might require much more effort to develop this. Also the 50 pin SCSI connector will take most of the 3.5" width, so the normal 34-pin floppy connector couldn't be placed there, and there would have to be some extra adapter to convert minimal connection (14 wires) to full 34 pin connector outside of the main CosmosEx PCB.

The whole device has a couple of features which in the end might be interesting in your TT & Falcon even without the higher throughput and HD floppy support, but I might be wrong - you have to tell me, so I don't develop a bullshit, in which you might not be interested in :) So - register, vote, tell your friends, and depending on the results - it might happen (or not ;) ).

Please feel free to ask questions or give other feedback about this in this thread.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by nativ »

Hi,

Floppy support - In the longer term wouldn't supporting 1.44 for Mega STe and TOS 2.06 enabled machines also be of benefit?

Scsi support, yes faster is better, how does this compare ? max CoSCSIex speed , Falcon SCSI speed, Falcon IDE speed?

another thought.. might be niche ASCI support on the Falcon! Yeah can I plug my ST HD into it? Second Floppy drive support on Falcon ? in hardware or software?

Can the standard cosmosEx and this Falcon CosmosEx be linked together for an superduperfast network?

thanks and good luck!

it's late an these are all probably crazy ideas :D
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Jookie »

nativ wrote:Floppy support - In the longer term wouldn't supporting 1.44 for Mega STe and TOS 2.06 enabled machines also be of benefit?
Yes, it is a nice feature for the ST(e) too, although I'm not sure if it will work with the current micro controller - it might be bit slow for it, and it doesn't have enough RAM for streaming only from RAM, so some continuous streaming from RPi to micro controller might be needed, and I'm not sure how the floppy controller in ST(e) will feel about this (I think it might work, but I'm not sure).
nativ wrote:Scsi support, yes faster is better, how does this compare ? max CoSCSIex speed , Falcon SCSI speed, Falcon IDE speed?
This page: http://www.atari-wiki.com/?title=ACSI,_SCSI_and_IDE
...says that SCSI on Falcon does up to 2 MB/s, and on TT up to 4 MB/s. So the current 1.2 MB/s is a half / quarter from their maximum, which might be a no-buy flag for some people.
nativ wrote:might be niche ASCI support on the Falcon! Yeah can I plug my ST HD into it?
I've heard about this SCSI-to-ACSI adapter idea, so even the current CosmosEx device wouldn't have to be touched, just this thing would be added between SCSI port and current CosmosEx device; or as you mention - you could connect some older ST ACSI HD into it... Although I would rather remake the device to have the SCSI connector directly on it, so you wouldn't have anything extra between SCSI port and it there - wouldn't like to have this extra thing hanging there if it could be done in a nicer way.
nativ wrote:Can the standard cosmosEx and this Falcon CosmosEx be linked together for an superduperfast network?
Well, you can have them on the standard 100 Mbit network, and the rest depends on the software (I'm not sure what you would like to achieve here).
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by AdamK »

Speed question lacks one option:

"I'd like it to be fast enough for TT&Falcon but I will buy it anyway".

Will SCSI CosmosEx useable with ST (and ACSI bus?)
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Martin8bity »

I plan to use it in ST, so I would buy it as it is. On the other side, I would buy it anyway ;-) I use external SCSI2SD in Falcon for data transfers.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by qq1975b »

An SCSI version would be awesome but maybe it would be helpful too to know price target.
I mean if the plain version is released would it have similar price as the ST version? And if the improvements are made...how much will raise its price?
Faster would be good and 1.44mb interesting too but if they will raise the price a lot...

Mega STe and 2.06 TOS users won't benefit of the 1.44MB update because the improvement would be on the SCSI version, right?

Thanks and congratulations for this very powerful device (running already on my ST :lol: )
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by GhstWlf »

My personal use of the SCSI version would be for my Macs or Alpha server and not Ataris. That said, a web interface, telnet or ssh interface would be usefull to interact with CosmosEX.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by evil »

The poll really need a comment field as well.

For example, I'd like to buy this device for the Falcon, if it works with 68060 :)
I'd pay more if it supports full SCSI-speed and 1.44/2.88MB floppy.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by shoggoth »

Yep, I want one. Badly. If it does HD floppy emulation and some of the other dingelidongs I'll sign up right away.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by atariancom »

yes i would be interested, price may be the main hurdle.

I have cosmsex for the ST, on the Mega STE and is making software trransfer oh so much better and to be able to run something similar on falson would e a boon.


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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Jookie »

AdamK wrote:"I'd like it to be fast enough for TT&Falcon but I will buy it anyway".
Well, of course everyone would like to have one as fastest as possible. But the whole poll is more about "Will a low performance device be enough for you?".

As I mentioned before, there are (at least) two options for the SCSI version:
- with current performance (~1.2 MB/s) - only few months of development, no big changes, same price as the ACSI version - this might be doable for me while manufacturing, selling, and sending the ACSI version

- with higher performance (2 MB/s or 4 MB/s) - this needs many changes, one of them is replacing Raspberry Pi with something more powerfull, and that would take many months of development (different interface, different linux build, different micro controller) - this is too much for me, I can't do this while making & selling the ACSI version for STs, also the price would be higher, and I have no idea how much (hopefully just something like 20 Euro or so).

Even if the end result from Falcon & TT users would be "I don't want it, it's not powerfull for me", well - I'm fine with that - I don't want to make something for which there would be no interest, and I don't want to promise making something which might take too long to develop and thus in the end might never reach a successful / usable stage.

The main problem is my time - I do have a family, a full time job, and even with the current devices I can't afford to sleep 8 hours every day ;)
AdamK wrote:Will SCSI CosmosEx useable with ST (and ACSI bus?)
If you won't have ACSI-to-SCSI adapter on your ST, then no - the ACSI and SCSI buses are bit different.
qq1975b wrote:An SCSI version would be awesome but maybe it would be helpful too to know price target.
I mean if the plain version is released would it have similar price as the ST version?
Same performance as ACSI version - same price, available within months.
Higher performance than ACSI version - higher price, available: who knows ;)
qq1975b wrote:Mega STe and 2.06 TOS users won't benefit of the 1.44MB update because the improvement would be on the SCSI version, right?
I want to try to add the 1.44 MB update to the current (ACSI) version, but I'm not sure if it will be possible or not. So if it will be possible with the current HW, then all the devices will have it, otherwise only the newer ones would have it (but let's see first).
GhstWlf wrote:My personal use of the SCSI version would be for my Macs or Alpha server and not Ataris.
The problem with the usage of it outside of Atari world would be the non-existence of drivers for other systems, thus it won't do much on your Mac or Alpha server.
evil wrote:The poll really need a comment field as well.
Naaah, just leave your comments here ;)
evil wrote:For example, I'd like to buy this device for the Falcon, if it works with 68060 :)
Now fixing / improving of the driver for 68060 would require a dedicated 68030 / 68060 developer - I don't even have a TT or Falcon, so I would definitely need more help on this one - the hardware and firmware can be done & tested with my ST + SCSI host adapter, it can be tested with MiKRO's Falcon, but the driver would have to be altered / improved by some Falcon owner, maybe even MiKRO, if it would be for his Falcon (he currently doesn't show any interest in the ST version and further help there, as he's focused mainly on Falcon now - porting some Quake, and so on).
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Frank B »

I don't mind about speed. Removable media support is a good idea on the falcon. I'd buy an ultra Satan for the falcon
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Cyprian »

Jookie wrote:This page: http://www.atari-wiki.com/?title=ACSI,_SCSI_and_IDE
...says that SCSI on Falcon does up to 2 MB/s, and on TT up to 4 MB/s. So the current 1.2 MB/s is a half / quarter from their maximum, which might be a no-buy flag for some people.
Someone with TT and SCSI reported that 1.8MB/s is a maximum what he reached.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Frank B »

Jookie if the new device works via SCSI perhaps Amiga retro people may be interested too.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by 1st1 »

SCSI Version for TT/Falcon would be nice! HD-Floppy-Support also sounds nice, but that would require to fit the CosmoEx into the TT or Falcon, as they externally don't support HD-Floppys.

A plus would be if the complete device, ACSI and SCSI version would fit into Atari SF 314/354 case wsithout modifying the case too much (all the connectors at the rear side), card slot, buttons, LEDs in the floppy drive hole at the front....

Alternative disk formats (ADF, Winimage, Mac) would be a plus. And maybe as the thord an IDE version...?
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by dhedberg »

I'd buy a SCSI version regardless, but would certainly prefer (and happily pay more for) a device that makes full use of the Falcon's hardware.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Eero Tamminen »

Jookie wrote:Now fixing / improving of the driver for 68060 would require a dedicated 68030 / 68060 developer - I don't even have a TT or Falcon, so I would definitely need more help on this one
You might consider using an emulator. Latest Hatari emulator Mercurial repo has additional support (compared to v1.8 release) for 060, MMU and TT-RAM. Its ACSI and IDE support is enough to do also some HD driver development. SCSI support is still missing though.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Jookie »

Frank B wrote:Jookie if the new device works via SCSI perhaps Amiga retro people may be interested too.
Without the translated driver they would be in the same situation as the Macs and other platforms - it would be just SD card / USB key reader.
Eero Tamminen wrote:You might consider using an emulator. Latest Hatari emulator Mercurial repo has additional support (compared to v1.8 release) for 060, MMU and TT-RAM. Its ACSI and IDE support is enough to do also some HD driver development. SCSI support is still missing though.
Hmm, good idea, but there's still problem with me not having enough (any) experience with those platforms, so a guy who did some assembler code there would be more helpful than me just having access to emulated HW ;)
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by alexh »

If you did an equivalent of an Ultrasatan for SCSI (SCSI -> IDE block level bridge) you'd be able to sell to the TT, Falcon, Amiga and Mac markets.

You could contact Acard and see if you could buy some ARC760-B silicon? Maybe combine it with an fc1306t and then it would just be a PCB design project.

Or a small FPGA?

Could you over clock the Cosmo's Pi to give extra performance? Lots of kodi (xbmc) users over clock their Pi's
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Jeff_HxC2001 »

alexh wrote:If you did an equivalent of an Ultrasatan for SCSI (SCSI -> IDE block level bridge) you'd be able to sell to the TT, Falcon, Amiga and Mac markets.

You could contact Acard and see if you could buy some ARC760-B silicon? Maybe combine it with an fc1306t and then it would just be a PCB design project.

Or a small FPGA?

Could you over clock the Cosmo's Pi to give extra performance? Lots of kodi (xbmc) users over clock their Pi's
http://www.codesrc.com/mediawiki/index. ... le=SCSI2SD
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Jookie »

alexh wrote:Could you over clock the Cosmo's Pi to give extra performance? Lots of kodi (xbmc) users over clock their Pi's
The performance issue lies within the SPI bus, which is used for communication between RPi and the rest of the electronics, and also in the USB chip (which is outside of the main chip), with which the throughput is around ~1.5 MB/s, so overclocking the main CPU probably wouldn't affect the USB thgroughput...
...and yes, as Jeff here mentions (without using words ;) ) - if the whole device would end up just like SD card / USB drive reader, then there are already other products, which do this. But the 'strength' of CosmosEx lies in having more features than just being SD-to-ACSI or USB-to-ACSI drive - it's also USB joystick / keyboard / mouse to Atari converter, floppy emulator, and possibly network card replacement, and also easy network drive solution...

Btw., I have an idea now, which would end up in the worse solution (that means same SCSI throughput as ACSI throughput), but the difference would be just in the different components on the PCB - this way we can have the same PCB for ACSI and SCSI versions, which means that we don't have to have many Falcon & TT users to have a reasonable price, because it would be similar to the ACSI version...
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by lp »

I already bought a high performance SCSI->CF solution a while back for my TT and a fast CF card. A TT030 only manages about 1.8mb/s regardless of the high-tech gear. I'm not really in the market for a new toy, but thought I'd share my results. :wink:
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by galax »

Falcon and TT owner, 1.2MB/s sounds pretty fast to me, and if it's really 66% of the theoretical maximum I can't imagine wanting to spend a lot more for the last 33% of maximum performance. I don't really care about emulating floppy disks on the Falcon/TT at all- the only reason for doing it on the ST is for demos and games that can't be copied to hard disk. At the right price (similar to existing ComosEx) I'd definitely buy one or two.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by nativ »

Just to flip things about

How would using a device like this on the Falcons IDE bus compare?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/All-in-1-Card ... 1533944554


Are we looking to reinvent the wheel? There is already GIGAfile ASCI > SD & SCSI >SD . they also make adaptor boards.
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Re: CosmosEx - SCSI version poll

Post by Jookie »

nativ wrote:How would using a device like this on the Falcons IDE bus compare?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/All-in-1-Card ... 1533944554
Compared to the CosmosEx on SCSI bus - the mentioned reader will offer better performance, but less features, as that is only mass storage connection.
nativ wrote:Are we looking to reinvent the wheel? There is already GIGAfile ASCI > SD & SCSI >SD . they also make adaptor boards.
As mentioned - if you need only SD card or some other mass storage, then using CosmosEx is useless, but if you are looking for more features (connecting the mass storage, but also USB mouse, keyboard, joysticks, a folder shared from Windows or linux, having a network card with STiNG or something similar), then it's not reinventing the wheel. This depends on your needs, and if you don't need those features, then there's no point in getting CosmosEx ;)
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