List of difficult to copy disks

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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by dlfrsilver »

JimDrew wrote:The new firmware is available. I started a firmware thread here since there wasn't one.

After updating your firmware you will be able to copy Ghostbusters II, KickOff2, etc. that use the no flux areas. KickOff2 requires you copy with blind mode turned off.

So, try imaging/copying Albedo now and running through Aufit to see if there are in fact any no flux areas.
thanks to the new revision of Aufit, i have checked Viaje al centro della Tierra disk 2, and it appears the disk is half amiga half atari ST track format.

I have redumped Albedo with the new firmware, here is the link the get the SCP file :)

https://app.box.com/s/716y4lejkwr2nhj96ado
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

Can you please re-dump this with blind mode turned off? ... and please select tracks 0-79 (only 0-72 were selected in your image).

Track 1, side 0 looks like the disk is dirty or damaged. It could be part of the protection, but I don't think so.

Either your drive is faulty or this disk really only uses side 0 on every track!
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by dlfrsilver »

JimDrew wrote:Can you please re-dump this with blind mode turned off? ... and please select tracks 0-79 (only 0-72 were selected in your image).

Track 1, side 0 looks like the disk is dirty or damaged. It could be part of the protection, but I don't think so.

Either your drive is faulty or this disk really only uses side 0 on every track!
i'm more than used to disk imaging. This game use only side 0 from track 00 to 70. There is nothing after this track (i have verified).

Track 1 is a copy protected track (the game is doing many reading on it).

This game is extremely well protected, both physically (Track 1 is copy protected, and tracks are 4us) and in software (use encryption + a TVBI : Trace Vector Byte interpreter !!).

here is the new dump with non blind mode :

https://app.box.com/s/mbpwm890bnownqqnixgp
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

The changing bit cells doesn't matter... flux is flux. They could be any value between 1.5us and 150us and be duplicated exactly every time. The NFA area is what would definitely not allow it to be copied before the v0.6 firmware upgrade.
Last edited by JimDrew on Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

I looked at your image, and the protection and all data appears to be there. But, there is some strange problem with the image sometimes showing the track very long with a NFA and other times that is gone. So, I must have some issue interpretting the NFA values or there is a problem with the image handler. I am looking into it.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by dlfrsilver »

JimDrew wrote:I looked at your image, and the protection and all data appears to be there. But, there is some strange problem with the image sometimes showing the track very long with a NFA and other times that is gone. So, I must have some issue interpretting the NFA values or there is a problem with the image handler. I am looking into it.
Or maybe it's how the tracks are made ? i'm going to write a fresh disk the image i have done, and i'll see what happen.

EDIT : when i write back the image made in blind mode, it loads track 0 then stop. When i write back the image made in non-blind mode, my A500 is not even able to load track 0. Hope it can help.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

The problem I saw is only with the analyzer, not the copy. However, there is something interesting about your dump. The length of revolution 1 and 2 for track 0, side 0 is off quite a bit. For some reason, the end of revolution 2 is not there (chopped off). I also noticed that this track is corrupted (all versions you have made), so either the disk is dirty, head is dirty, or the disk is really that way. I would believe that except that track has to be normal enough for the Amiga to read it and boot it.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by dlfrsilver »

JimDrew wrote:The problem I saw is only with the analyzer, not the copy. However, there is something interesting about your dump. The length of revolution 1 and 2 for track 0, side 0 is off quite a bit. For some reason, the end of revolution 2 is not there (chopped off). I also noticed that this track is corrupted (all versions you have made), so either the disk is dirty, head is dirty, or the disk is really that way. I would believe that except that track has to be normal enough for the Amiga to read it and boot it.
My Amiga 500 runs the original disk at perfection, with no noise at all. The disk in itself is in a good shape :)
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by dlfrsilver »

Just for fun, here is the disc layout of Viaje al centro de la tierre from Topo soft for amiga (Disk 2) :

As you can see, the tracks in black are amiga MFM, and the others are atari ST MFM format (+ GAP protection).

Just under, Lorna from Topo Soft for Amiga Disk 1 ; Tracks in black are amiga MFM, the last track is an atari ST track for protection.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

Look at the Flux Visualization Display in SCP's analyzer for track 0, head 0 of Albedo. If you see a vertical column that is just about the full height of the display, with random pixels, that is a weakbits area. That and smeared areas are common with a dirty disk.

I will manually build the tracks with your image data and see if the disk works.
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Albedo!

Post by JimDrew »

Well, as I stated previously, as long as your disk is clean and your drive head is clean you can always dump a .scp image. You may not be able to write it out (currently), but you're not wasting your time making images. You should be able to make a .stx image from your .scp image, using Aufit.

Today, I was able to use your image to make a working disk of Albedo. The protection check is actually less difficult to reproduce than the normal tracks as they are a custom format requiring a certain length (from what I can tell).

The disk loads 0, 1, 0-16, 2, 17-36 - intro then 37-43 (pausing a couple of times, probably for decompressing), then 47-52 to some screen probably telling you that it is loading (I don't speak French - sorry), then 52-70 in odd steps to the main screen.

The loading of the tracks is pretty quick since only side 0 is used.

I appreciate this image as it probably represents the worst case scenario for re-creating a working disk. So, I will use it as my test reference. If this thing works, everything else should as well.
albedo1.jpg
albedo2.jpg
albedo3.jpg
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by dlfrsilver »

that's good :) Thanks for looking !
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

Well, at this point we can successfully duplicate every type of protection made, except those where the disk was deliberately destroyed using various methods. Nothing we can do about that at this time.

So, I am working on a neat read verification routine that will let you verify a dump matches every revolution and alerts you when data does not verify. Weakbits will give you a false trigger, which is normal because this should be the case. This works exceptionally well for recovering data.

We can all see 3.5" disks didn't fare well over the course of time, but 5.25" disks did! Who would have thought? The media integrity test was a great addition that shows when blank disks are unusable. A lot of people reported to me that after finding disks that pass the integrity test, copies then work perfectly!

I am working on the flux display so that you can view the data for each revolution either consecutively (how it is now) or overlaid with a different color for each revolution, as well as the ability to show just the differences.

So, a few more tweaks here and there and the software should be completely stable and easy to use. If you have any feature requests, I am all ears.

I will be working on floppy drive emulation aspect as the next objective.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

OK, does anyone know what the protection is on track 79, side 0 of Wizball? It copies fine with SCP, but it appears to be some type variable density like Rob's CopyLock.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by dlfrsilver »

JimDrew wrote:OK, does anyone know what the protection is on track 79, side 0 of Wizball? It copies fine with SCP, but it appears to be some type variable density like Rob's CopyLock.
It's an ocean game ? Then it's a copylock on track 79. Ocean only used copylock as protection (aside MFM long tracks).
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by AtariZoll »

JimDrew wrote:OK, does anyone know what the protection is on track 79, side 0 of Wizball? It copies fine with SCP, but it appears to be some type variable density like Rob's CopyLock.
What edition of Wizball ? I looked Ocean Euro ed. , and there is old type Copylock - track read based. Not variable density. Another ed. is US, Thunder Mountain ed. , where I see non-standard sectors #247, #245, #246 in track 79 . No signs of variable density in STX images.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

It's the Ocean version, so it's Copylock. You can see the timing for the sector vary up and down in the flux display.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by AtariZoll »

Copylock<>Copylock. Wizball, Ocean ed. has very old Copylock from 1987 - it is even not encrypted. I looked in Debugger - loads track 0, and seeks some pattern, then 32x $4E . Calculates some key according to what reads there, and writes to some RAM loc. , what depends from data in track too. Cracking is joke.
There is no any loading of/from track 79 . All data there is 'virgin' - $E5 . Frequency noise ? :D
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by DrCoolZic »

Can you provide scp image of the game?
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

Sent you an email...
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by JimDrew »

I received an original sealed "BoBo" today along with an opened "Treasure Trap". Oddly, both sets of disks for these games did not work because the center hub spun freely from the magnetic media! As a test, I put a drop of CA (superglue) where the center hub meets the plastic and I was able to load Bobo and copy it, however, the index mark is way off from where it should be. I have never seen this issue before, but gluing the disk seems to work.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

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JimDrew wrote:I received an original sealed "BoBo" today along with an opened "Treasure Trap". Oddly, both sets of disks for these games did not work because the center hub spun freely from the magnetic media! As a test, I put a drop of CA (superglue) where the center hub meets the plastic and I was able to load Bobo and copy it, however, the index mark is way off from where it should be. I have never seen this issue before, but gluing the disk seems to work.
There is thread here, where someone wrote about same problem with floppy. Wrong index position may be problem by protections using track read. But I guess that shifting of track can be done in image.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by DrCoolZic »

AtariZoll wrote:
JimDrew wrote:OK, does anyone know what the protection is on track 79, side 0 of Wizball? It copies fine with SCP, but it appears to be some type variable density like Rob's CopyLock.
What edition of Wizball ? I looked Ocean Euro ed. , and there is old type Copylock - track read based. Not variable density. Another ed. is US, Thunder Mountain ed. , where I see non-standard sectors #247, #245, #246 in track 79 . No signs of variable density in STX images.
I have looked at the image of Wizball and there is not really any "deliberate" variable density on track 79. However seems like the quality of the track is not that good and the frequency is anomaly spread with 2 peaks around 4 µs
wizball-graph.JPG
I have seen the following protection used:
  • - Data over index (unfortunately the image provided has only one revolution so I cannot interpret correctly)
    - Invalid sector number: 247, 245, 246
    - Sector 9 is located inside sector 247 (sector within sector)
    - CRC error on sector 247 and sector 246
    - invalid characters $F7 in GAP
    - invalid ID segment (all characters are $F7) <=== never seen this before
    - all sectors contains no data E6 excepts sector 247 that contains from F0 to FF followed by some info ?
wizbal-track-top.JPG
wizbal-track-2.JPG
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by DrCoolZic »

About NFA over index
Having a No Flux Area located over the index is really a pain to handle :)
I have spent the last day fixing the display in Aufit. It now works as expected with Kryoflux file ...
Turrican NFA KF.JPG
I just tested the latest version of SCP with the new firmware and the display is now also correct. :)
The only problem remaining is the size of the track is short by 2.x ms (the partial NFA after the index) ... but the display is good and the stx output is good.
Turrican NFA SCP New.JPG
I will see if I can work around this problem (KF provides both the complete NFA and the position of the index inside the NFA but SCP does not :( )
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Re: List of difficult to copy disks

Post by IFW »

Re: Wizball it sounds like the ST version of HLS for that track... what does CTA say?
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