Best ST for Scene demos

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Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Spritexl »

Hello there,

Looking to return to the ST demo scene after many years away, which version is best compatibility for scene demos STFM or STE.

Thanks

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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by StickHead »

If your budget will stretch that far, I would suggest one of each, then you have a machine for every demo. If you really only want to get one, I recommend an STE for compatibility with the later, really impressive stuff.
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by troed »

StickHead wrote:If you really only want to get one, I recommend an STE for compatibility with the later, really impressive stuff.
Hey! All the impressive stuff was made before the STE ... :P

/Sync - with fullscreens in SNYD2 and SoWatt that aren't STE compatible ...
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by nativ »

/\ Yep the Vanilla ST had a good few years of inventive code
http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform% ... e=1&order=

The STe has had a few demos ;)
http://pouet.net/prodlist.php?platform% ... e=1&order=

but there is still plenty to play with 8)

popping 4Mb and TOS 2.06 if required in an STe is straight forward
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Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Spritexl »

Thanks, remember the So-Watt demo (shame this is'nt STE compatible), Cuddly Demo and my favourite from memory The Union demo are these STE compatible, didn't really see many demos on the STE, considering what they were able to with an STFM I should imagine the STE stuff is amazing!!
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Omikronman »

I remember the "Mindbomb" Megademo and the "Oh Crickey what a Scorcher" Megademo I got years ago on the Atari show in Düsseldorf. :-)
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Zorro 2 »

Welcome on the forum mister Spritexl :D
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by lotek_style »

I would say STE :) ... but you should get both machines... shouldnt be that expensive these days :)
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Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Spritexl »

Thanks, loved my ST even thou (dare I say it) I moved over to the Amiga, ST holds so many special memories, looks like I'm gonna need both STFM & STE, dunno what the missus will say, she already complaints about all my retro computers, oh well ;-)
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by StickHead »

Spritexl wrote:Thanks, loved my ST even thou (dare I say it) I moved over to the Amiga, ST holds so many special memories, looks like I'm gonna need both STFM & STE, dunno what the missus will say, she already complaints about all my retro computers, oh well ;-)
If you only have one out at a time,, she will never know the difference and assume they are one and the same machine. ;)
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Spritexl »

Like your thinking there, Stickhead :cheers:
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by STEdawg »

Spritexl wrote:Thanks, remember the So-Watt demo (shame this is'nt STE compatible), Cuddly Demo and my favourite from memory The Union demo are these STE compatible, didn't really see many demos on the STE, considering what they were able to with an STFM I should imagine the STE stuff is amazing!!

SO WATT definitely works on an STE, it always worked on my Tos 1.62 machine. I think there was 1 screen that never worked on an STE from that demo.

:)
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by troed »

STEdawg wrote:SO WATT definitely works on an STE, it always worked on my Tos 1.62 machine. I think there was 1 screen that never worked on an STE from that demo.
Yes, ours ;) The fullscreen timings used were not updated for STE ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXoWL4Xn1Oc

(I patched a binary rip of that screen, and the one in SNYD2 suffering from the same problem, to work on both ST and STE sometime in 1999 or so - but since emulators are available for everything today it's not something I released .. )

My notes from back then:

Code: Select all

ST/STe compatible:

nop
move.b d1,(a2)		2 nop .. 
nop
move.b d0,(a2)
12 nop
move.b d1,(a2)
nop
move.b d0,(a2)
89 nop
move.b d0,(a1)
move.b d1,(a1)
12 nop
repeat

(128 nop)

Old Sync SoWatt code! ST:

move.b d1,(a0)		2 nop ..
nop
move.b d0,(a0)
14 nop
move.b d1,(a0)
move.b d0,(a0)
89 nop
move.b d0,(a1)
move.b d1,(a1)
12 nop
repeat

(128 nop)
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Shredder11 »

StickHead wrote:
Spritexl wrote:Thanks, loved my ST even thou (dare I say it) I moved over to the Amiga, ST holds so many special memories, looks like I'm gonna need both STFM & STE, dunno what the missus will say, she already complaints about all my retro computers, oh well ;-)
If you only have one out at a time,, she will never know the difference and assume they are one and the same machine. ;)
Hmmm...might be pushing things a bit too far but would she notice if the other machine was a Falcon 030? :mrgreen: Well I suppose if ultra cautious you could use an ST keyboard! :lol:
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Brume »

troed: could you post the patched versions of both (SoWatt Demo & Swedish New Year Demo 2) ?
Thanx :)
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by bullis1 »

troed wrote: (I patched a binary rip of that screen, and the one in SNYD2 suffering from the same problem, to work on both ST and STE sometime in 1999 or so - but since emulators are available for everything today it's not something I released .. )
I agree with Brume! It would be nice to have this fix available.
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by troed »

Brume wrote:troed: could you post the patched versions of both (SoWatt Demo & Swedish New Year Demo 2) ?
Thanx :)
bullis1 wrote:I agree with Brume! It would be nice to have this fix available.
You _do_ remember SYNC is known for never releasing anything, right? ;)

Just to be clear - I ripped our screens, as far as I know the source is long gone. Patching the full demos would also need a lot more work. As I left them it's a single file, for each, with a loader residing in AUTO.

I'll try to verify their status on the STE next to me before making further promises.

(sorry for derailing the thread)
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by Spritexl »

Hmmm would love a Falcon 030 but even if she didn't notice the slight difference in the look of the machine she's would certainly notice the big hole in the bank account Shredder11 :P
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by troed »

troed wrote:
Brume wrote:troed: could you post the patched versions of both (SoWatt Demo & Swedish New Year Demo 2) ?
Thanx :)
bullis1 wrote:I agree with Brume! It would be nice to have this fix available.
You _do_ remember SYNC is known for never releasing anything, right? ;)
However ... as requested - "The LoSTE screens", by SYNC. Released 2013-09-07.

http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=61839

/Troed
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by bullis1 »

Thanks Troed! I already caught this on pouet & plan on watching later today.
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by bullis1 »

Well Troed, it has some issues sadly. Results:
-intro/menu has line of garbage at top of screen, random flickering and corruption in sync to the music, and some graphics are offset
-first screen starts out with ghosting/corruption but eventually sorts itself out (which is rather odd)
-second screen is completely garbled, showing only static and getting sucked into the bottom-left corner of the display

My best guess as to the problem: the demo is assuming 50hz instead of setting it specifically. I ran the demo on a MSTE, 60hz territory.
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by troed »

bullis1 wrote:Well Troed, it has some issues sadly. Results:
-intro/menu has line of garbage at top of screen, random flickering and corruption in sync to the music, and some graphics are offset
-first screen starts out with ghosting/corruption but eventually sorts itself out (which is rather odd)
-second screen is completely garbled, showing only static and getting sucked into the bottom-left corner of the display

My best guess as to the problem: the demo is assuming 50hz instead of setting it specifically. I ran the demo on a MSTE, 60hz territory.
Many thanks for testing - even though the results was somewhat disheartening :D I've never used a Mega STE but I'm under the impression that when running in 8MHz it's exactly like a regular STE - correct?

The main menu runs a syncscroller and both classic screens are fullscreens which mean they specifically set 50Hz more than most :P Your description of the menu sounds like an unstable top border which doesn't manage to fix itself. The second classic (SoWatt) seems to start out that way but corrects itself (the border routine contains an auto-detect-and-modify so yes - that can happen) and the second classic (SNYD2) doesn't seem able to - but it's a sync scroller so when it fails I guess it can fail to the point of not being able to auto correct.

As far as I know while there are individual differences (clock speeds) and wakeup modes on regular STs all STEs should be "the same" - I have no real explanation at all for what you're seeing and don't even know where to start looking at the moment.

(I just now looked up how to automatically set 8Mhz cache-off on a Mega STE from the demo - there's currently no such code there. Mega STEs were released in 1991 and our demo shell was finished in Januari 1990 ... )

If I get more feedback allowing me to understand the issue I'll release an update. Thanks for testing on real hardware! I've tested extensively on a regular STE and a 8.021247MHz STF in all wakeup modes (1,2,3,4 - all cold and warm) but that's all I had myself ;)

/Troed
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by ljbk »

Hi !

This is just to mention that even with STEs, there are different CPU clock speeds especially between NTSC and PAL versions.
I don't know about Mega STEs.
I have not tested the demo on my real STF yet but i will do it when i have some time.

Paulo.
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by troed »

ljbk wrote:This is just to mention that even with STEs, there are different CPU clock speeds especially between NTSC and PAL versions.
I don't know about Mega STEs.
I have not tested the demo on my real STF yet but i will do it when i have some time.
Thanks as always for your insight Paolo :D
bullis1 wrote: I ran the demo on a MSTE, 60hz territory.
Could you please set your Mega STE, when you have the opportunity, to 8MHz cache off 50Hz and run Paolo's test program and report the results?

http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=24862

I kept the "SYNC top border" code (dual timers to minimize jitter, written in late 1989) in the final version of the demo even though I at one point had the more modern "Timer + STOP 2100" implemented and it might've been the wrong choice to make. Without knowing more about why it fails (and something to test on .. ) it will be very difficult to fix :( However, just knowing about CPU speed differences will help somewhat.
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Re: Best ST for Scene demos

Post by ljbk »

Hi !

So unless there is a friday 13th effect, i would say that your menu has some serious top border flickering effects on my real STF especially when the options 1 and 2 appear going up and down ...
Remember that this machine might be the slowest of all (8.0071 MHz) but i would say that the music has also probably its role in this as it probably uses timers (for SID) and the problems are not constant.
Besides the two old demo screens work fine: i think i saw one frame flickering during 10 minutes for the Sowatt unlimited sprites fullscreen.
I also tested the original screen with the Sowatt demo and that one really had stability problems but not with the top border. It had probably to do with the stabilizer position you changed.
Again about that screen, may i ask why do you have those 3 groups of 16 pixels at the top (red and dark red now (one blue with the original screen)) ?

Paulo.
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