putting a second internal floppydrive in the STF..

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putting a second internal floppydrive in the STF..

Postby Lando_C » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:07 pm

I have changed the floppy cable in my 1040 STF to a two-connector-with-twist from a PC, in the hope to be able to get two floppydrives to play with (since the original cable was bad, anyway).

I get the first drive to work, but not the second one.

there is no select drive 1 signal present at the mortherboard at the internal floppy cable holes, and only one motor on signal - and those are not even in the PC standard places. but rather in the old "Shugart" standard (?) which seems to support up to four drives but only one motor on signal (????). THe ST however doesn't even connect the driveselect 1,2 and 3 signals, only connecting pin 10 (called driveselect 0 in the STF schematics) and 16 (motor on)

The pc "twist" cable is made assuming that pin 10 is motor enable A, 12 driveselect B,
14 driveselect A and 16 Motor on B

with a single modern PC drive, strapped as drive A this happens to work on either connector, despite the fact that the drive is getting only drivesel 0 signal from either the motor on pin or the drivesel 0 signal on the ST. BUT pins 12 and 14 are not connected in the ST motherboard.

Soooo. I looked for the pinouts of the external floppy port. and decided all that i needed was to connect cables 10 and 16 from the drivecable to pinhole 16 in teh mobo (so both drives will spin when accessing either one), cable 14 from the drive to pinhole 10 on the mobo, and finally cable 12 to pin 6 on the external floppy connector, adn i would have two internal drives.

I changed the cabling accordingly,

BUT

this doesnt work, The ST never finds the second drive (but drive 0 works) (with both drives strapped as factury, i.e as drive "1"'s). It boots fine from the first drive (the one on the twisted end of the cable), but when I doubleclick the"B" icon it tells me to put disk B in drive A :-(

Why doesnt this work? is there a switch to sense if theres a plug in the external jack, that needs to be closed for the TOS to look for a second drive? Have i read the specs wrong somewhere? The bank of resistors between the external and internal ports are 0-ohmers, right? (black and gold ring)

all help appreciated. (both drives are brand new, and both work fine by themselves on the cable!!)
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Postby Greenious » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:43 pm

Actually, the ST uses the same signals for both drives, except the drive select.

If you connect an external drive to a STFM, if you pay attention, you will notice that the internal drive spins up if you access the external one and vice versa.

So, the trick is simply to locate the drive select signal for the external drive, and if memory serves me correct, it's located on the PSG. (pin 19)

The simplest way to do this, is to actually set the same drive id on both drives, and cut the drive select signal between the drives, and connect the second drive to the PSG pin 19. (you better check out that it is indeed pin 19, and if any resistors, buffers or something is needed in between)

Anyway, both drives should be connected on the same pins, except for the drive select bit.
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Re: putting a second internal floppydrive in the STF..

Postby ijor » Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:40 pm

Lando_C wrote:I have changed the floppy cable in my 1040 STF ...
and finally cable 12 to pin 6 on the external floppy connector


The signals on the external floppy connectors are shifted in the STF models (with respect to models without internal drive). So you actually need to connect to pin 5, and not to pin 6.

Greenious wrote:Actually, the ST uses the same signals for both drives, except the drive select.

If you connect an external drive to a STFM, if you pay attention, you will notice that the internal drive spins up if you access the external one and vice versa


Yes, and this is actually by design. The idea is that you won't need to wait for spin-up when switching drives.

simbo

Postby simbo » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:48 am

maybe link w2 is all you need instead of drive surgery
look at the schematic of the stfm or w300 w301 { in looking i think move both} in ste
first drive that works {twisted far end}
is now last drive on cable
so drive A logical

http://www.maplin.co.uk/family_free_del ... itches.htm

even a sale on them omg grab a bag cheep!!!


method get a few

Single Pole Sub-Miniature switches

from maplin


the center pin will be too long
trim it to the same size as the rest
and tin it with a 17 watt iron
cut any link already made
{
its usualy the centers pins rotate
look at the schematics {youll find these on the net or ask}

solder on the switch facing up
but
if you need longer points to fit leave the center pin intakt
solder the center first
and extend the outer two lying flat add a slice of tape under it
if needed and solder down
e.=vola...

external drive can now be only drive a and bootable clone for multi boot and transfer program use in schools{planed i am shure}
so you cant connect it unless you use buffers and althought it sounds hard its easy to do
to boot up as many machines as like at once etc.,.. as long as no disks are in place even then you can turn them off

and the ident chain is switches by a dual poll switch
you can have up to 128 drives all buffered just using resistor networks
and a bcd switch bay {lol }


if you use internal drive a position
{only two drives 0 - 1}

but maybe the twist must come first in the cable

look to older 186 286 machines the twist is first then straight

they had edge connectors but i think this format was 'adopted' by atari at
st level {video machine ata level hdd games were the rage}
we got 16 bit bus even with 60030

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Hmm, so I have the wrong schematics :-(

Postby Lando_C » Tue Jan 10, 2006 3:37 pm

Pin 5 you say, Ijor ? that makes sense, the STF would not need an external drive A, but you would want the external drive to work without needing to re-strap it or special cable for stf models.

Will try that later tonight!

Simbo: thanks for the link, but i dont think I'll need the switches, I'll be happy with two drives, and If I find an external drive I can put that on the 520 :)
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Re: Hmm, so I have the wrong schematics :-(

Postby ijor » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:07 pm

Lando_C wrote:Pin 5 you say, Ijor ? that makes sense, the STF would not need an external drive A, but you would want the external drive to work without needing to re-strap it or special cable for stf models.


Exactly.

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Was there ever a way to hook up more than 2 floppies on ST?

Postby Lando_C » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:48 pm

Did atari ever make it possible to have more than 2 floppydrives on the ST? In the floppy standard there is drive select 0,1,2 and 3..

I used to have six floppies on my Apple ][e.. editor and pascal compiler on one, linker and assembler on one, libraries (turtlegraphics etc) and workfile space on the third and (possibly) three for data...

there was a game called portal that came on six floppies.. I think i must have been one of the very few who never swapped disks in that one =)
140 K / disk.. those were the days.
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simbo

Postby simbo » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:42 pm

you can find many many slot card to 34pin idc connectors {floppy knotch type} as this was a standard of 720 and 360k disks in ~286 esp apricot and apple portables {bricks} or amstrad 286 lap crushers
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Re: Was there ever a way to hook up more than 2 floppies on

Postby ijor » Fri Jan 13, 2006 1:28 pm

Lando_C wrote:Did atari ever make it possible to have more than 2 floppydrives on the ST? In the floppy standard there is drive select 0,1,2 and 3..


No, and that wouldn’t make much sense. This made some sense for 8-bit computers, but in the ST you would better get a hard disk.

There were some third party products that allowed you too connect more than two floppies. Most of them required to manually switch among them, so you could only have two floppies active at a given time.

simbo

Postby simbo » Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:34 am

the protocol atari hdd and fdd

works as be level 1 non ata ide {scsi mode 1}
what is known as {radical} ide standard these days

scsi with asci command layers with ide fdd

are the main access windows the atari uses

but the fdd reforms to ide standard

and you need to adhear to the old standard 286 386
{
the older fdd standards {pre 144mb level }
this allowed 720k and was level 0 ide

and 8mhz max transfers {for hd was 16 mhz for dd was 8 mhz }

so you need to go back a bit till the point

cables for fdd were twist first then carry
modern ones are twist last and have 34 pin sockets

older has edge connectors and is twist first

and this the the standard atari uses
the only way i got reliable ide fdd a-b drives internal was to to use edge connector to normal floppy connector adapters

and this way i could access drive a as the first drive as drive a and the last after the kink as drive b

only after changing the internal link
and the external socket was a drive a {for multiboot as i mention


modern cables are twist last


:roll: :arrow: whats the problem

you need a none standard old cable two adapters
and two 1.44 mb drives + hdd 74 chip and xtal mod

for any st 030 is very much later


if you really need to follow pin 6 using the old and new standards

you see the kink comes first

rekinks or dosnt
dependant on if you need an internal master boot
{over rmany machines} fdd network was employed in atari but never followed on====

if you cant work it out you need help

infact this is my new signiture

simbo

Postby simbo » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:46 am

as far as i know there are thee main ide standards for floppy cables

1} no kink straight {drive ident jumpers used to ident drive a.b}

2} kinks first drive a first
drive b last no need to change idents
usualy edge connector only

3} kink last
main standard for all modern machines made after 1990
and also has edge connectors sometimes {older pre p1 standards}

but only usefull after the advent of onboard fdd controllers
rolled out with 286

so basicaly the cable you need
is kink first drive a first at the kink
drive b last on the cable

no need to change ident
and use any drive {dd hd etc with mod}

but you must change the w301 302 links{ste{ look at schematic for fm its w2 i think}}

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Where to find link w2?

Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:42 pm

I Have a 1040 STF with motherboard C070523-001 Rev D.

I can't seem to find the link W2.. is it marked on the mobo like the Rxx resistors and capacitors and the like, or must I follow traces to find it ? I would appreciate a pointer to scanned schematics for this motherboard as well, since I only have schematics for an older ST mobo.
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simbo

Postby simbo » Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:55 pm

hi

here is a excerpt of the stfm schematic

as you can see in the stf/m the floppy ports drive select isnt connected to the drive select inside the atari
you need to connect pins 12 and 14 up drive select

on the main floppy internal header

pin 14 should also be connected to pin 10
so both motors will run even if your using drive b internal

run a thin wire from pin 12 internal floppy header

to pin 6 external floppy socket
so that the drive select will work on the main internal cable

this will restore the correct active drive selectors

basicaly you can run two drives
the internal header isnt fully wired on stf machine's

but in the ste it is

now a twisted cable will work aok
with no need of w2 link change
infact the stf dosnt have this jumper at all


http://www.computerhope.com/help/floppy.htm
http://www.nullmodem.com/Floppy.htm

here is the pinout of a pc floppy {most ms-dos complient ide}

i need a few parts and ill do some experiments to varify a method


i am shure this looks aok to do

drive 0 and 1 select are used by the twist to reorient the ident as the active drive

the motor should now spin in the b drive you have and if you select the b icon it should look at drive b

as i say ill varify a method on this stf here and post further news

if others can spare some time and testing to get this right it would be cool



more info

to find pin 5/6 floppy port {in stf this pin 5 is grounded
turn the main pcb over face the sockets away from you

youll see the floppy port looks like

<screw over here
{back of pcb}{rear of machine}

3 5 6 etc...
.---.---.---.---.
--.---.---.---.--
.---.---.---.---.

<screw hole here

in the stf i have the floppy socket on the rear pin 3 and pin 5 are gnd

{drive 0 select on this cable is gnd {so locked for 1 drive operation also}

pin 6 the square looking one should connect to pin 12
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Last edited by simbo on Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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results

Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:26 pm

OK, so I have the pins 0-9,11,13,15 and 17-34 straight onto the floppy cable.

cable 10 and 16 from the floppy (both motor on signals) to hole 16 in the motherboard.

cable 12 from the floppy to pin 6 on the external floppy port (drive select 1)

cable 14 from the floppy to hole 10 in the motherboard (drive select 0)

This doesnt work right, The computer never sees floppy B (beyond the twist), reads disks fine as logn as floppy B is empty, but bombs out if both drives have disks in them.

the differerance is that pin 5 or 6 can be toggled by one signal
both drives should be left at drive a {0}



with cabel 12 to pin 5 as suggested by Ijor, th computer finds two floppy drives, but reads from them both when you access the B icon and only from A when you access the A icon. And drive B light stays on all the time.


Help?
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simbo

Re: results

Postby simbo » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:42 pm

Lando_C wrote:
OK, so I have the pins 0-9,11,13,15 and 17-34 straight onto the floppy cable.

cable 10 and 16 from the floppy (both motor on signals) to hole 16 in the motherboard.

cable 12 from the floppy to pin 6 on the external floppy port (drive select 1)

cable 14 from the floppy to hole 10 in the motherboard (drive select 0)

This doesnt work right, The computer never sees floppy B (beyond the twist), reads disks fine as logn as floppy B is empty, but bombs out if both drives have disks in them.

with cabel 12 to pin 5 as suggested by Ijor, th computer finds two floppy drives, but reads from them both when you access the B icon and only from A when you access the A icon. And drive B light stays on all the time.


Help?


re read what i wrote

use a 34 pin socket in the motherboard

add a normal pc cable




REV C MACHINES
---------------------
wire pin 6 of the external floppy
port to pin 12
of the new internal floppy socket
REV D MACHINES
--------------------
use pin five 5 of the floppy connector {the one to the left by one}
id 1 signal comes from pin 5 connect again to pin 12 of the new floppy socket {underside of pcb}
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Last edited by simbo on Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Found the problem!

Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:59 pm

I had the floppy port pinout from the web, and it was WRONG!

the pins are numbered as this, in the 1040STF manual (which i didnt have until today..)


11 10
9 8
12 13
7 14 6
5 4
3 2
1


In the pinout i got off the web, th pins were numbered in a circle with pin 1 top left, so I have been trying to get drivesel B from pin 1 and 2 ( read data and side 0)

Wrong docs sucks.

This page is wrong!
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Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:07 pm

Code: Select all

 
          11             10
        9                     8
       7      13   12       6
         5        14        4
               3        2
                   1
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simbo

Postby simbo » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:25 pm

no

the back of the pcb

do the mod to the rear of the pcb {sockets }




floppy cable allows a desktop computer to have two floppy drives connected to one controller like the IDE / EIDE controller. Because floppy drives ' almost always' do not have a master / slave jumper, the drives are defined by cable select, which can be identified by looking for the cable twist.

so do yours have a master slave jumper ??? id 0 - 1?



also

try this

change the floppy id jumper to use id1
use this as the first drive before the twist

and usual drive a with no ident changed after the twist
if you get troubles

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Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:50 pm

status now:

drive selects are right, because I can read fine from both drives now (pin 5 as ijor said, but the correct pin 5 according to the printed docs).

Now the trouble is I can't write to any drive, it just erases the FAT, then spins a while, clics, spins a while, etc, as if it was reseeking track 0.. and after a while i get
"data on the disk in {A|B}: may be damaged.."
(and teh directory is 0files/0bytes)
this is on writes as I said, but it reads fine from both drives.

what now?
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simbo

Postby simbo » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:56 pm

pin 5 isnt right

its pin 6 the center pin of the top row of the external floppy socket
it has a square pcb pad


{the circuit is wrong i think
i have here version C070523-001 REV.C PCB STF

has no modulator board just space

in this one
pin 5 is grounded {use a meter to test this }


pin 6 is drive 1 select

and external can never be a drive 0 {dont use this socket for anything}

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Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:03 pm

I have a rev D, and my drive sel 1 IS on external floppy connector pin 5.
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simbo

Postby simbo » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:05 pm

do your pin 5 and 6 connect together ?

also try changing the drive ident on b to id 1

ok disconnect pin 14 from pin 10 this will fix it for shure
looking at the ste i see it hasnt got a pin 14 connection

maybe is something to do with it

this is drive select a
and i dont think its needed

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Postby ijor » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:22 pm

Pin 5 is the right one. The pin nomenclature is misleading because it is the one for ST models without internal drive.

On ST models pin 5 is drive 0 select, pin 6 is drive 1 select. But precisely because external drives can’t be drive 0 in STF models (as they can in ST models), the pinout is reassigned.

So on STF models the drive select 1 signal coming from the motherboard is connected to pin 5. This has the effect that the first external drive (which is always selected following pin 5) will be selected when the computer tries to access drive 1/B.

Pin 6 in STF models shouldn’t be grounded, it should be tied to VCC or disconnected (because the drive has pull-ups). And as a matter of fact this is what I can read in STe schematics. But whatever is in pin 6 is not important and is not significant unless you happen to connect two external drives.

In anycase, it is obvious that you have the drive select signals correctly, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to read from both drives as you are. Difficult to know what’s exactly your write problem. What happens if you try to format the disk?

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Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:25 pm

No, pin 6 Doesn't seem to be connected anywhere it's a blind hole in th e PCB.

Are you sure we're using the same pin numbering? I would call the pin with a square solder patch pin 1... as the printed user manual does. Anyway, i am quite certain I have the drive select signlas right.. now my problem is I cant write, as i said before. if i have a writeprotected disk, it complains correctly about thata, but i fi i try to write to any disk it will be destroyed... probably it writes all zeros.. but the write data cable measures ok connection, so I'm suspecting i have fried the FDC chip write output or something like that :(
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write woes

Postby Lando_C » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:31 pm

If i try to format a disk, (in any drive) it behaves just the same as trying to write a file, it displays the formatting... dialog, spins the driev, lights the drivelight, sits like that for a while, then seeks to track 0 (i presume) with a click, then sits a while...click...spin a while...click.

The clicks are about 20 seconds apart, so it is'nt the normal formatting track-to-track seek, and the progress bar isn't moving.

after a few clicks (10 or so) it complains with a dialog "an error occurred while copying or formatting, the disk in drive ... may be unusable"
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