Pasti project (copy protected disk images).

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Pasti project (copy protected disk images).

Postby ijor » Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:02 pm

Pasti is a software package consisting of imaging and preservation tools for Atari ST software.

Pasti.Dll is the emulation helper tool. It extends Atari ST emulators, adding support for extended disk images. These disk images support exotic, custom, and copy-protected formats. You can now use emulators to run ST software in its original uncracked form. At this time, Steem 3.2, recently released, is the only ST emulator supporting Pasti.

Pasti.Dll is the first component of the package released to the public. It is still in beta, but it is stable enough for going out of closed beta. It is available at http://pasti.fxatari.com/ . A short preliminary documentation is included.

There are no images of games available to download at that site. The only image available is the Union Demo, a wonderful but copy-protected demo. The demo is not fully compatible with STe computers, and then it needs the –stfmborder option to run correctly under Steem.

Some images of copy-protected games will likely be released shortly on the usual ftp sites. Please don’t ask, we don’t distribute game images to the public.

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Postby Fred_R » Sun Oct 24, 2004 2:18 pm

Cool, it's an up-and-coming project!

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Postby RetroGamerUK » Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:33 pm

I would be surprised if any images of original games become available on the more popular servers, I should imagine there would be copyright issues.
I do hope this happens however, and I also see that this is not another type of "preserve all the games (for me only) society" farce like was done on the Amiga.
Anyway, I am sure this tool will come in handy for those with original games and no real ST to play them on ! :)

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Postby ijor » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:11 pm

RetroGamerUK wrote:I would be surprised if any images of original games become available on the more popular servers, I should imagine there would be copyright issues.


Hmm, from the point of view of copyright there is no difference whatsoever between an image of an original game, and an image of a cracked version.

that this is not another type of "preserve all the games (for me only) society" farce like was done on the Amiga.


I can assure you this won’t happen. In first place the Atari community attitude is different, we all know that. In second place, the philosophy of the imaging tools is different. Anybody will be able to produce images. The imaging tools create images that are directly usable. You don’t have to submit “dumps” and wait for somebody to make an image from your dump.

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Postby aktiv8 » Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:34 am

nice news ijor -hope it all goes well in its release form :)
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Postby insanity » Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:28 pm

I can assure you this won’t happen. In first place the Atari community attitude is different, we all know that. In second place, the philosophy of the imaging tools is different. Anybody will be able to produce images. The imaging tools create images that are directly usable. You don’t have to submit “dumps” and wait for somebody to make an image from your dump.


ijor,

I, like a lot of people on this forum, have been following your project
from the start and I was wondering if we were going to ever see anything! :oops:

Anyway, I must say I'm very impressed, keep up the good work... :P

Do you have any date penciled in for the public release of the imaging
software?

baz/insanity

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Postby ijor » Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:08 pm

Thank you Baz.

insanity wrote:Do you have any date penciled in for the public release of the imaging software?


I would prefer to not make any date commitment. But the version for plain ST won’t take too long.

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Postby simonsunnyboy » Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:09 am

I assume that this project will form some sort of standard for copyprotected games as images on the ST platform.
Will there be support for ST emulators under Linux and other non-M$ systems? I'm sure reading would be enough - imaging ain't really necessary although we still don't have a single disk imager for Linux that is easy to handle.

I would prefer an opensource method but closed source will do too for sure as along as it does work properly and allows its integration into existing emulators.

In any case thanks for your effort - it will surely add a new dimension to ST emulation!
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Postby alexh » Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:08 am

RetroGamerUK wrote:I do hope this happens however, and I also see that this is not another type of "preserve all the games (for me only) society" farce like was done on the Amiga.


It was never like that.... They set out to preserve all games they could get there hands on but they wanted to stay 100% legal. To do this they could only release images of games officially released by the copyright owners.

They also distributed images to those who could prove they had the original (by creating a dump).

Because they were archiving ALL games that were dumped...... As games are released as "freeware" they release the images publically.

To stop a flood of "BAD" dumps onto the scene they split the tools into two halves and only released one half.... Owners dump their disk images... the main base waits until they have two or more identical dumps from different people that are 100% unmodified before release.

I personally vote for this system. How many times have I found that crashes in ST emulators are in part due to bad .MSA & .ST files :(

I'm looking forward to PASTI and seeing what it can do. Unfortunately I doubt you'll ever be able to "write back" PASTI images to disk using an ST making the .MSA and .ST disk images required also :(

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Postby leonard » Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:04 am

Hi Ijor,

We are in contact since a while and I have to include Pasti support in SainT as soon as possible. (btw if you have a newer version of your SDK please sent it to me)

For curious people, can you say a little more about the futur "disk maker" program ? I mean, does it run on ATARI, PC, other system ?
Leonard/OXYGENE.

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Postby ijor » Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:47 pm

simonsunnyboy wrote:I assume that this project will form some sort of standard for copyprotected games as images on the ST platform.
Will there be support for ST emulators under Linux and other non-M$ systems? I'm sure reading would be enough ...


Yes. The emulation helper tool (equivalent to Pasti.Dll) will be released for Linux. But this probably won’t happen before we are out of beta.

I don’t plan to port for any other platform, neither it will be opensource. But it will be “open specs”, so at least in theory anybody will be able to implement his own “reader” as you call it.

I agree, porting the imaging tool is not necessary.

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Postby ijor » Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:21 pm

alexh wrote:To stop a flood of "BAD" dumps onto the scene they split the tools into two halves and only released one half....

I personally vote for this system. How many times have I found that crashes in ST emulators are in part due to bad .MSA & .ST files :(


I don’t think that was the reason why they “split” the imaging tools. Neither it is really necessary here.

The public preservation and the imaging will be separated processes. You want to image a damaged or modified disk, go ahead. It is ridiculous to forbid you to do it with the tools. Tools are just tools and they should be as flexible and powerful as possible.

Public preservation will be implemented by trusted parties. They will be able to attach a digital signature to the image. This is the only way to handle this, and this is why:

The specs of the copy-protected image format must be open. It will be a standard, so it can’t be undisclosed. Would you accept a standard with an undisclosed format? (I certainly won’t).

Because specs will be disclosed, you can’t trust any image based on what the tools allow you or not. Using the open standard anybody might create different imaging tools.

I'm looking forward to PASTI and seeing what it can do. Unfortunately I doubt you'll ever be able to "write back" PASTI images to disk using an ST making the .MSA and .ST disk images required also :(


A plain ST can’t write most protections (this is obviously no surprise, protections were specifically designed for this). There will be imaging tools with write back capabilities for different hardware. Initially we will support the Discovery Cartridge on the ST and the Catweasel on the PC. I don’t see the relation with MSA and ST images. They will probably stay with us forever in anycase.

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Postby ijor » Tue Oct 26, 2004 4:07 pm

leonard wrote:We are in contact since a while and I have to include Pasti support in SainT as soon as possible. (btw if you have a newer version of your SDK please sent it to me)

For curious people, can you say a little more about the futur "disk maker" program ? I mean, does it run on ATARI, PC, other system ?


Hi Leonard,

I’m looking forward for Saint with Pasti support. And I know I’m not the only one :)

No, you have the latest API. I will intentionally avoid changes to the API until you have at least a preliminary release with Pasti.

The imaging tools will be available for different hardware and platform combinations. Initially we’ll release the plain ST version. Versions for the ST with Discovery Cartridge and Catweasel on the PC will follow.

Do you have many originals? If so, I can certainly send you the imaging tool beta for plain ST right now (you have some priviledges) :)

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Postby alexh » Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:56 pm

I donÂ’t see the relation with (Pasti) and MSA / ST images.

Yeah?

Ok... I was trying to say that because PASTI images cannot be written (easily) back to floppy disk (for use on the REAL Atari ST) they will not replace their MSA and ST counterparts.

The Atari ST Scene needs a tool like this more than the Amiga scene IMHO...

A lot of ST games have been ever so slightly "butchered" to enable the crack teams to get more than one game onto the scene's infamous 'Compact Disks'.

Amiga cracks tend to leave the games more or less intact. (Did Amiga owners have more money for disks or something?)

I've often seen ST Original games contain more title screens, intro's etc. than their crack counterparts.

So I look forward to PASTI.

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Postby ijor » Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:16 am

alexh wrote:Ok... I was trying to say that because PASTI images cannot be written (easily) back to floppy disk (for use on the REAL Atari ST) they will not replace their MSA and ST counterparts.


Yes, I thought that was what you meant.

What I tried to say is that even in the hypothetical case that Pasti images could be easily written back, they would still not replace the standard ST and MSA formats. Pasti images have (obviously) a complex format, you will always want a simpler one for many purposes.

Interesting what you say about Amiga vs. ST cracks. Don't know, perhaps somebody of the famous crews have a better idea about why that difference.

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Postby Fiath » Fri Oct 29, 2004 8:54 am

alexh wrote:A lot of ST games have been ever so slightly "butchered" to enable the crack teams to get more than one game onto the scene's infamous 'Compact Disks'.

Amiga cracks tend to leave the games more or less intact. (Did Amiga owners have more money for disks or something?)


Perhaps it could be because many ST games are single sided?

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Postby alexh » Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:25 am

Fiath wrote:Perhaps it could be because many ST games are single sided?


Possibly, I did think that before posting, so I went through a small sample of my ST collection (which dates between 1988 and 1993) ALL of them said "Double Sided" on them.

One game included one Double Sided disk with fallback of two single sided disks.

I think that the Atari ST 'Compact Disk' scene came about due to a combination of several things

1) ST Cracks were butchered more than their Amiga counterparts
2) Atari ST music was mainly chip and Amiga was samples
3) Different colour depths (although I think it was rare to use)
4) Game developers probably had to stick to lower size disks on the ST (720k vs 880k) so Amiga games COULD be bigger. (of course this doesnt take into consideration custom formats)

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Postby Cyrano Jones » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:24 am

alexh wrote:1) ST Cracks were butchered more than their Amiga counterparts


*ALL* Automation/D-Bug games are 100% complete with nothing removed, as are, I believe, all Pompey Pirates menus. Maybe the ST crews just had more talent? :P

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Postby ijor » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:11 am

Leonard announced that Saint 1.85 with Pasti support has been released. See http://www.atari-forum.com/ftopic5191.html

A new version of Pasti Dll has been released. Version 0.2e integrates a couple of bug fixes. One of them is important for running certain images under Saint.

http://pasti.fxatari.com

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Postby steph » Fri Nov 26, 2004 12:57 pm

You can find images of Dungeon Master and Chaos Strike Back in stx (pasti) format on this site :


The Dungeon Master & Chaos Strikes Back Encyclopaedia
Steph

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Re:

Postby catmando » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:26 pm

ijor wrote: The imaging tools will be available for different hardware and platform combinations. Initially we’ll release the plain ST version. Versions for the ST with Discovery Cartridge and Catweasel on the PC will follow.
I know this is going back a bit and has probably been answered somewhere else on AF in previous years, but I just wondered for the purpose of 2011 whether this is ever likely to happen? and if indeed they do exist what is the purpose of holding them back since other imaging technologies have appeared on the scene since pasti's conception?
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Re: Re:

Postby ijor » Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:06 am

catmando wrote:I know this is going back a bit and has probably been answered somewhere else on AF in previous years, but I just wondered for the purpose of 2011 whether this is ever likely to happen? and if indeed they do exist what is the purpose of holding them back since other imaging technologies have appeared on the scene since pasti's conception?


It is a bit of a long story. The quick answer is that I still expect (have hopes) to release some Pasti stuff that I never released to the public, but probably not those tools that you reference (imaging tool for the Discovery Cartridge and Catweasel).

The imaging tool as you know it, that I used to call "plain ST" is very practical for some purposes. You don't need anything special or custom hardware, only a standard ST. You don't need to send or submit the dump, wait until any post process or anything like that. You make the image, you use it right away. You don't have to post it or share it with anybody else at all, if for whatever reasons you don't want to.

The other devices, DC and CW, are great for other different purposes. They work at a much lower level, and produce much more detailed and accurate images. It is much easier to verify it the disk was tampered or modified, and you can even sometimes recover data that otherwise, reading with standard hardware, you couldn't. But precisely because the image is at a lower level, it is not so suitable for automatically making an image that you could use right away. We normally used intermmediate low level dumps with these devices. You wouldn't benefit too much with these tools.

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Re: Re:

Postby catmando » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:23 am

ijor wrote:
The other devices, DC and CW, are great for other different purposes. They work at a much lower level, and produce much more detailed and accurate images. It is much easier to verify it the disk was tampered or modified, and you can even sometimes recover data that otherwise, reading with standard hardware, you couldn't. But precisely because the image is at a lower level, it is not so suitable for automatically making an image that you could use right away. We normally used intermmediate low level dumps with these devices. You wouldn't benefit too much with these tools.
thanks for clafiying that, but how about some software that uses the catweasal or dc to write the images back to disk?
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Re: Re:

Postby SofiST » Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:45 am

ijor wrote:It is a bit of a long story. The quick answer is that I still expect (have hopes) to release some Pasti stuff that I never released to the public, but probably not those tools that you reference (imaging tool for the Discovery Cartridge and Catweasel).
The imaging tool as you know it, that I used to call "plain ST" is very practical for some purposes. You don't need anything special or custom hardware, only a standard ST. You don't need to send or submit the dump, wait until any post process or anything like that. You make the image, you use it right away. You don't have to post it or share it with anybody else at all, if for whatever reasons you don't want to.
The other devices, DC and CW, are great for other different purposes. They work at a much lower level, and produce much more detailed and accurate images. It is much easier to verify it the disk was tampered or modified, and you can even sometimes recover data that otherwise, reading with standard hardware, you couldn't. But precisely because the image is at a lower level, it is not so suitable for automatically making an image that you could use right away. We normally used intermmediate low level dumps with these devices. You wouldn't benefit too much with these tools.

Still nothing new to hear .... But I'm curious who is other people participating in Pasti project, as you started to use word 'we' ? Of course, if it is something you want to share with us, mortals.

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Re: Pasti project (copy protected disk images).

Postby ijor » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:02 am

Answering here, what you asked in other thread:

catmando wrote:
ijor wrote:...All of them (that I know, of course) were fixed already in updated versions of the library that, unfortunately, I never released to the public.
What happened? Did you loose your work?


No. I didn't mean "unfortunately" in that sense. I meant that I regret than in all those years I didn't release an updated DLL library, which I had inhouse long ago. One of the reasons is that the updated library, besides fixing all known bugs, added some new features that were only partially implemented, or not yet fully tested.


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