Atari Falcon IDE to CF

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Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:40 pm

Hi all,
I got a IDE to CF adapter for a Falcon 030.
I accidentally plugged the ribbon cable backwards so my CF card has probably fried. :oops:
Hope the falcon itself is okay but I need to get another CF card and format it properly to verify that..
The weird thing is that with only the IDE to CF adapter plugged in (the right way) the machine does not boot.
The adapter is passive AFAIK so I wonder why the falcon does not start when it's plugged in.

Anyway my initial plan was to install a CF acting as a hard disk for my falcon.
Is there any step by step tutorial on how I should proceed?
I intend to use adscsi (the free driver) first to check basic functionality and then opt for the HD-Driver..
Any suggestions on how to start?!

Thanks:)

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:49 pm

Just wanted to add that the machine boots properly without the IDE to CF adapter attached so I probably damaged the adapter itself, the card or both..
I should be able to boot with the CF card attached even when it's non-formatted, correct?!

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby 1st1 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:14 pm

You can't brick the IDE-CF-Adapter as it is just a mechanical conversion, connector to connector. Usually there is no logics/electronics on it. You might bricked the CF only.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:26 pm

Thanks!
So, what could be bothering the falcon from booting with just the adapter plugged in?
Also, what could be the correct sequence for successfully formatting a CF card from the atari?
Do I try to boot with a FAT formatted CF and a floppy containing the adscsi driver?
I know It must've been answered before but I couldn't find a step by step tutorial..

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby joska » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:48 pm

belzrebuth wrote:So, what could be bothering the falcon from booting with just the adapter plugged in?


Only speculating as I have not checked the actual schematics, but maybe the master/slave jumper on the adapter fools TOS into thinking that there's a device present.

CF-cards can be tricky on the Falcon, a lot of CF-cards simply does not work with the Falcon. Also, not all drivers works with CF-cards. So testing IDE functionality with CF-cards is not easy - if/when it doesn't work you really don't know which part is failing. If you can't get your CF-card(s) to work I strongly suggest you try with a real IDE drive or an IDE->SD adapter instead. These works without problems with all known harddisk drivers.

belzrebuth wrote:Also, what could be the correct sequence for successfully formatting a CF card from the atari?


You don't :) Don't format IDE devices, and in particular not CF- and SD-cards. You only partition it, using the tools supplied with the driver. ICD tools are good, HD-Driver is good. AHDI is also a good driver. Not the fastest, but very reliable in my experience. The problem is that the format/partitioning tools are very basic.
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:15 am

Great info!Really appreciate it!
I'll be back with more as soon as I have some updates.I'll try a 2.5" hard drive while waiting the IDE to SD adapter I just bought to get here.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby Ektus » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:00 am

I've got a Falcon with the same type of problem, in my case the ribbon cable to the original 80MB HDD was inserted shifted to the side. Result: One wire of the ribbon cable melted and IDE port on Falcon mainboard damaged beyond repair. The Falcon works just fine as long as nothing is connected there, but won't boot if there is. Some short in the inner layers of the PCB. I've had to resort to SCSI only.


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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby joska » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:55 pm

joska wrote:
belzrebuth wrote:So, what could be bothering the falcon from booting with just the adapter plugged in?


Only speculating as I have not checked the actual schematics, but maybe the master/slave jumper on the adapter fools TOS into thinking that there's a device present.


It appears that the honorable ppera himself is still reading this forum, despite being banned here twice. He felt the need to comment upon my incredibly stupid and idiotic statement above on atariage:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/285800-the-experts/

To clarify my statement - to my knowledge the only way a common IDE->CF adapter differs from a straight cable is the master/slave jumpers. So if the presence of an empty adapter causes the Falcon to boot, it could *possibly* be related to this. But as I said, just speculations. The IDE->CF adapter on my desk has a Cable Select option but I don't know if that line is connected to anything in the Falcon.

And as both ektus and ppera points out, it's possible that the Falcon itself got damaged when you connected the cable incorrectly. However, it is not easy to check this with a CF-card as you really can't say where the problem lies in that case. Or does the problem also happen if you connect only the cable? In that case your cable could be damaged.

In the post on atariage ppera claims that I'm wrong about not all drivers working with CF-cards. Well, he's the one who is wrong here. If you look at e.g. HD-Driver then Uwe specifically made changes to the IDE driver to support CF-cards. Versions prior to ~2007 (IIRC, I could be wrong about the year here) did not work with CF cards. I actually upgraded HD-Driver specifically to use CF-cards in 2007. Prior versions did not detect the card correctly, and the format/partitioning tool were not able to write to it.

As for his "Then he shows how he smart is - explaining about format, mentioning ICD Tools - do they have IDE driver at all ?" statement - yes, the ICD driver supports Falcon/ST-Book IDE. I used it myself for in the mid 90's. You can safely use this driver for IDE units.

If your Falcon shows the same problem with an actual IDE drive connected it is likely that your Falcon is damaged. Or if you're lucky - the cable. Have you checked it thoroughly? Around 20 years ago a wire in my Falcon's IDE cable actually melted and shorted the cable. I can't remember exactly why it happened, but I probably hooked up the cable incorrectly. No damage to the Falcon though.

The IDE data- and address-lines are connected unbuffered to the Falcon's bus. I doubt that you have done any damaged there since the Falcon works with no IDE device connected. The IDE control lines (atleast some of them) are generated by the COMBEL, it could be damaged. However, I don't see how the presence of a passive IDE->CF adapter alone could cause the problem you describe in this case.

When you say that the Falcon does not boot with the CF-adapter installed - exactly how does it not boot? Do you get a white screen, or a black screen? If a black screen - maybe a reset problem? How is the IDE reset (pin 1 on the IDE interface) connected in the Falcon? In aftermarket IDE-interfaces for the ST the reset-line is connected to the system reset-line, so a problem here could prevent the machine from booting at all. I don't know how it works in the Falcon, but the schematics will tell.
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:44 am

Okay, today everything works fine for some reason:)
I tried booting with only the cable and it worked, then plugged the adapter and finally the CF.
I tested the CF first and it showed up fine on my computer so it didn't fry after all.
Beginner's luck I guess.

Yesterday all I got was a black screen and no orange blinking light when I was trying to boot with only the adapter installed.
Really strange indeed.

Anyways, I'm now burning a floppy with the ICD driver.
I plan to boot with the CF in place and then try the INSTALL.PRG.
Does the CF card shows somewhere when plugged in?
Because I can only see the two floppy drives on the TOS desktop.

edit:
It think it's probably a hardware problem..The ICD driver does not detect the CF card.It's that cheapie blue CF card that's all over ebay so maybe I just need to buy a sandisk extreme or something..
Unfortunately I don't have any IDE 2.5" HDs lying around except for the one that's inside my A1200 so I'll have to get one of those or a branded CF card to test..
My assumption is that whatever the ICD tools can't detect the HD-Driver would not too, right?
So I probably going to have to get my HW recognised first no matter what driver I'm going to end up using..

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby mfro » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:52 am

joska wrote:
joska wrote:...It appears that the honorable ppera himself is still reading this forum, despite being banned here twice. He felt the need to comment upon my incredibly stupid and idiotic statement above on atariage...


He even signed in to gihub for the sole purpose of ranting, just because he felt EmuTOS developers didn't treat his expertise as he deserves.
Better let him continue talking to himself as it seems he himself is the only person to fully value his expertise (and can stand his socialisation). Poor soul.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby joska » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:19 am

belzrebuth wrote:Okay, today everything works fine for some reason:)


Good :)

belzrebuth wrote:Yesterday all I got was a black screen and no orange blinking light when I was trying to boot with only the adapter installed.
Really strange indeed.


Obviously there is some reason for this. However, it does not have to be related to IDE. It could be a pure coincidence. Or there could actually be an intermittent problem with your IDE port/cable/unit. There is a good chance that this will happen again. Also, from your description below you actually doesn't know that IDE is working at all now, just that the Falcon boots.

belzrebuth wrote:I plan to boot with the CF in place and then try the INSTALL.PRG.
Does the CF card shows somewhere when plugged in?
Because I can only see the two floppy drives on the TOS desktop.


I have not used ICD for 20+ years so I can't remember how to install it. But generally speaking you first have to configure the driver to look for IDE devices, and then run the driver. If there is an installer I would suspect that it takes care of this.

When a correctly configured driver is started it will look for IDE devices and print a list of them. If it does not appear to find any devices or prints what looks like random characters you really should try with a real IDE device instead. Or an IDE->SD adapter, these works much better with Ataris than CF-cards. I've used this one in Falcons, ST's and Amigas without problems:

https://www.dx.com/p/sd-memory-card-to- ... A4fqmj0kwE

All drivers I've tested works fine with this.

belzrebuth wrote:It think it's probably a hardware problem..The ICD driver does not detect the CF card.It's that cheapie blue CF card that's all over ebay so maybe I just need to buy a sandisk extreme or something..


Yes, it's likely that your CF-card just doesn't work in a Falcon. Many cards doesn't.

belzrebuth wrote:My assumption is that whatever the ICD tools can't detect the HD-Driver would not too, right?


I have not used ICD with CF-cards in a Falcon so I don't know. But new versions of HD-Driver works with devices (CF-cards included) that older versions could not even detect or detected incorrectly. So it's not unlikely that the ICD driver has problems with CF-cards that HD-Driver handles. You can try the HD-Driver demo and see if it detects the card.

But again, you should ideally test with a real IDE device to confirm that the Falcon's IDE is actually working.
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby ThorstenOtto » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:35 am

joska wrote:He felt the need to comment upon my incredibly stupid and idiotic statement above on atariage:


Tsstss, why are you posting such stupid and idiotic statements then? You know you should not do that. Better ask him next time before posting here.

:wink:

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:20 am

Maybe I was using the wrong driver?
I've downloaded icdp655a driver and it detects the card:)
I'm running the INSTALL.PRG right now; let's see what happens!
It's stuck at "testing for bad sectors.." for quite some time but that may be related to the size of the card (4GB).
I guess I can leave it do its thing for a reasonable amount of time and if I return and it's still stuck there I may have to read a bit of info on how to get it working..
I think there's some progress done though so that's good.

edit :
http://joo.kie.sk/?page_id=306

Here's a comprehensive step by step guide I found.
I used the wrong PRG apparently I should've gone with ICDFMT instead and skip the sector checking.
I'll leave it to do what it needs now and then retry with ICDFMT if things get messy.(too many partition etc)
I've gone with INSTALL.PRG because in the DOC files it says that that's the recommended/automated way for newbies to set up a hard disk.


edit 2:

It did its thing and now I can see a HARD DISK icon on my desktop. :cheers:
The only problem now is that the machine does not boot with that icon if the floppy with the driver files is missing.
Somehow it needs the floppy to load the driver.
The hard disk contains the AUTO folder and boot file so I'm not sure if it should be behaving like this.(I imagine these files are used to load the driver each time the computer starts)
Maybe I'm missing a step where you actually have to do something for the driver to auto-load when you boot the computer.
I think I'm close so any help at this point would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby joska » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:30 pm

You have to install the driver on the boot-partition (C:). Did you do step 18-22 in the guide you linked to above? What is the size of your boot-partition?
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby wongck » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 pm

belzrebuth wrote:Maybe I'm missing a step where you actually have to do something for the driver to auto-load when you boot the computer.


step 18 onward of Jookie's steps?
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:45 pm

I simply run the INSTALL.PRG so I may need to restart the whole procedure by formatting the CF card again on my PC and run the ICDFMT.prg instead of the INSTALL.PRG as per the links' instructions.
I found the guide after I run the INSTALL.prg so I let it complete to avoid further problems.
I'll follow jookie's guide and get back to the forum to post my results.
I think from now on everything is software-related so with the right configuration it should be up and running.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby tzok » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:08 pm

The HDUTIL.PRG is a kind of menu/launcher tool for various other tools. One of the tools allows you to install and another one to configure (R/W Cache, SCSI clock, color resolution) the ICD Boot.

BTW
PPera was right in what he'd said.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:11 pm

So you mean by running HDUTIL I will be able to choose if the ICD driver loads automatically when booting up?

edit:
HDUTIL menu has indeed an option (boot) in which your chosen partition (c:) can be set to autoboot the driver.
It worked great so no re-partitioning or anything else needed.
Thanks everyone for their insight/time.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby wongck » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:43 am

:thumbs: great
glad you got it up & running
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby neanderthal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:56 pm

Ah,using ICD? pity didn't see this before.(yes only PRO version is 'new' enough to probe falcon IDE port)
For future reference CF-cards dont need real formatting.
Just see that driver(from floppy) finds disk.ICD boot
Get into the partition meny and make the partitions.ICD format
Install driver onto boot partition(normally C:).HD util

And you can even fast partition with write part info only.
I tend to use that a lot since play around with disks.
Drawbacks with ICD is support IDE upto 4gig or something? and no XHDI support in driver.(XHDI is needed for fancy mint drivers,etc)

btw,really odd to see ICD pro with german menys and stuff..lol (jookies page there)

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby belzrebuth » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:02 pm

I think that ICD does not format the disk if not needed..I've actually read that somewhere..
So it probably does not format the CF maybe it just creates a new partition table depending on the size of the disk and creates as many partitions as they can fit after checking the disk for bad sectors.
I'm just speculating here but I might not be too far from the truth..

To be honest I was thinking to redo the whole process at some point in order to have a clear image of the steps for future reference and also reduce the number of partitions to only one or two.
I just need some kind of "permanent" save space that's all.
And I sure don't like that many hard disk folders lying around and taking up desktop space..

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby joska » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:37 pm

neanderthal wrote: and no XHDI support in driver.(XHDI is needed for fancy mint drivers,etc)


I'm quite sure that later versions of the ICD driver supports XHDI.

Edit: It does: "Fully XHDI 1.2 compliant" (http://www.icd.com/atari/)
Last edited by joska on Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby cb » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:53 pm

mfro wrote:
joska wrote:
joska wrote:...It appears that the honorable ppera himself is still reading this forum, despite being banned here twice. He felt the need to comment upon my incredibly stupid and idiotic statement above on atariage...


He even signed in to gihub for the sole purpose of ranting, just because he felt EmuTOS developers didn't treat his expertise as he deserves.
Better let him continue talking to himself as it seems he himself is the only person to fully value his expertise (and can stand his socialisation). Poor soul.


He also achieved to be banned from a forum where he was a moderator (Exxos Forum). That's yet another highlight in his troll career. :lol:
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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby neanderthal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:27 pm

joska wrote:
neanderthal wrote: and no XHDI support in driver.(XHDI is needed for fancy mint drivers,etc)


I'm quite sure that later versions of the ICD driver supports XHDI.

Edit: It does: "Fully XHDI 1.2 compliant" (http://www.icd.com/atari/)


Whatta heck?,,lol.. been using it for ages :lol: .(ICD pro 6.5.5,bought the thing back in the day)Why does stuff whine about the XHDI then?Too old XHDI or something?
Have to check into that more closer.

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Re: Atari Falcon IDE to CF

Postby KLund1 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:56 pm

joska wrote:In the post on atariage ppera claims that I'm wrong about not all drivers working with CF-cards. Well, he's the one who is wrong here. If you look at e.g. HD-Driver then Uwe specifically made changes to the IDE driver to support CF-cards. Versions prior to ~2007 (IIRC, I could be wrong about the year here) did not work with CF cards. I actually upgraded HD-Driver specifically to use CF-cards in 2007. Prior versions did not detect the card correctly, and the format/partitioning tool were not able to write to it.


This may be true, but not all CF cards are the same. I went though about 10 CF cards before I found one that HDDriver 8.x liked in my Falcon many years ago. It was the Kensington Elite CF cards, the green/black ones. But it looks like his 'cheapi' card works. He was lucky.

belzrebuth, The Falcon IDE supports 2 drives. You could add a second adapter for an SD card that is external. see my units picture
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