Second floppy

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thesender604
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Second floppy

Postby thesender604 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:13 am

Hi
Well got myself an ste and i was wondering is it possible to change the floppy cable inside so that you connect both drive a and b or do you have to use the external floppy connection ?

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Re: Second floppy

Postby DarkLord » Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:59 pm

I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled by this question. Why wouldn't you want to use
the external floppy connector for a 2nd drive?

Were you planning on trying to mount the 2nd floppy internally? Or were you
thinking about recasing?

Sorry if I'm not seeing the obvious here. :)
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Re: Second floppy

Postby troed » Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:46 pm

DarkLord wrote:I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled by this question. Why wouldn't you want to use
the external floppy connector for a 2nd drive?

Were you planning on trying to mount the 2nd floppy internally? Or were you
thinking about recasing?

Sorry if I'm not seeing the obvious here. :)


Well, while I cannot answer the OP until after new years, I want it to be able to mount an HxC Floppy emu internally as well as keeping the original Floppy. I'll add an A/B switch as well to make sure I can boot from either.

I've ordered the necessary cables and connectors so in two weeks I'll know ;)

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Re: Second floppy

Postby 1st1 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:57 pm

yes, it is possible. You only have to link the DS1 signal from the external floppy port to the concerning pin on the internal flat cable. If you like to swap A and B you need a a switch to swap DS0 <-> DS1 signal. Anyhow it is possible that HxD also can handle A and B at the same time, this would conflict with a phisical attached drive.

For HxD I have shot a SF354 drive on ebay, and I will put HxD inside instead of the original single side drive.
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Re: Second floppy

Postby troed » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:21 pm

1st1 wrote:yes, it is possible. You only have to link the DS1 signal from the external floppy port to the concerning pin on the internal flat cable.


I think that's what the OP really wants to know actually. I've assume it's there already, but not verified yet. (pin 14 edit: that was supposed to say pin 12)

Anyhow it is possible that HxD also can handle A and B at the same time, this would conflict with a phisical attached drive.


It can, but I assume if you only jumper it as a single drive it doesn't interfere with another drive on the same cable.
Last edited by troed on Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Second floppy

Postby thesender604 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:27 am

Sorry i was not very clear :(
Yes i am planning on re casing so i was going to take off the floppy cable and replace it with a idc floppy connector so that i can plug a standard floppy cable of what ever length i need(not sure what length i need as yet) i know that the internal drive is set to id 0 and im assuming the external is set to id 1(but not sure) so im kinda asking if it put 2 drives in can i just set the id's and put them on the same cable or do i need to take some connections from the drive b connector on the back of the machine ?? hope this is a little clearer

ok hadnt read what you guys had wrote i need a link from pin 14 of the external floppy connector do i just link it to a specific pin on the idc if so which one is it please

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Re: Second floppy

Postby thesender604 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:25 am

its ok i think ive sussed it


Atari 14 pin connetor _______________________idc floppy connector

pin 6 drive 1 select ________________________pin 12 drive 1 select
pin 8 motor on ____________________________pin 16 motor 1 enable

can some please verify thats all i need to do please

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Re: Second floppy

Postby troed » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:05 pm

thesender604 wrote:can some please verify thats all i need to do please


Have you verified the signals aren't there already? It wouldn't be possible for the HxC Floppy Emu SD to be able to emulate both drive A and B if they weren't, I'd think. (At least select, it doesn't use the motor signal at all).

I don't know, but I will need the same info in two weeks time and so far I had assumed they were there.

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Re: Second floppy

Postby Guest » Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:46 pm

motor on 0,1 is used as a 'motor on' on both external internal and mixed
ie duel internal etc...

the best dual actual floppy disks i added to my old ste was two from a brick amstrad haha laptop
it has two half height drives

so just about a,b fits in the single drive space inside st/e etc
just 1 or two mills difference

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Re: Second floppy

Postby Shredder11 » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm

troed wrote:
DarkLord wrote:I have to admit I'm a bit puzzled by this question. Why wouldn't you want to use
the external floppy connector for a 2nd drive?

Were you planning on trying to mount the 2nd floppy internally? Or were you
thinking about recasing?

Sorry if I'm not seeing the obvious here. :)


Well, while I cannot answer the OP until after new years, I want it to be able to mount an HxC Floppy emu internally as well as keeping the original Floppy. I'll add an A/B switch as well to make sure I can boot from either.

I've ordered the necessary cables and connectors so in two weeks I'll know ;)


This is what I have wanted to do ever since I got my HxC SD interface :cheers: :coffe:

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Re: Second floppy

Postby troed » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:05 pm

troed wrote:I've ordered the necessary cables and connectors so in two weeks I'll know ;)


Turns out I won't. I ordered a floppy male2male adapter to be able to attach a "normal" dual connector PC floppy cable to the existing cable in the Atari - but no matter how I jumper the HxC I can't get the ST to boot from either of the two connectors.

Am I running into cable length issues? Not exactly where I thought I would have problems making this mod :)

(The male2male plug was meant to find issues before I start exchanging the original floppy cable motherboard connector with a proper pin header ... it seems it did)

I'll revisit this topic when I've sorted out whatever problem this is and have the two drives (HxC + internal original floppy) up and running.

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Re: Second floppy

Postby thesender604 » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:17 pm

Ok not sure whats going on here changed the floppy connector for pin header put a standard floppy cable on it connected internal drive(set to ds0) on the first connector and the second drive (set to ds1) on the second connector (didnt take a link from pin 6 on the external floppy connector to pin 12 of the idc header as it already there) but for some reason when i try and access drive b drive A lights up and drive b spins but doesnt read and gives me an error is there something obvious im missing if so please someone hit me over the head with it or im just going to remove the external drive connector and wire a second floppy cable straight to the mobo in its place

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Re: Second floppy

Postby wongck » Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:22 am

thesender604 wrote:Ok not sure whats going on here changed the floppy connector for pin header put a standard floppy cable on it connected internal drive(set to ds0) on the first connector and the second drive (set to ds1) on the second connector (didnt take a link from pin 6 on the external floppy connector to pin 12 of the idc header as it already there) but for some reason when i try and access drive b drive A lights up and drive b spins but doesnt read and gives me an error is there something obvious im missing if so please someone hit me over the head with it or im just going to remove the external drive connector and wire a second floppy cable straight to the mobo in its place


Kind of hard to read without punctuations.
But I think you are trying to use a 3-way PC floppy on the ST internal floppy port to drive 2 floppy drives.

I am not sure if you need to change TOS understanding of how many drives are connected to the internal port.
Because for a single drive system, both A & B are the same. It just ask you to swap the diskette.
How does it know that, probably because nothing is on the external floppy port.
So you may need to trick it in to believing you have a 2 floppy system.

BTW, how are you mounting 2 floppy in the case?
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Re: Second floppy

Postby thesender604 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:16 pm

sorry never answered the question on where i was mounting the second drive the answer is in the place of the psu above the cartridge port and midi ports and using a picopsu :)

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Re: Second floppy

Postby wongck » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:47 am

So you have to make an opening to slot the media in.

For the wiring, it may be easier to just route the cables to the floppy port. Sure it's something sticking out, but it's the back.
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Re: Second floppy

Postby thesender604 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:00 am

yep just cut a slot and its ok i just desoldered the second floppy port soldered wires to the board and put an idc connector on the end just need to fill the hole on the back of the case with some body filla

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Second floppy

Postby ToasTuk » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:01 pm

I believe most of your issues were due to the fact atari did not wire the IDC to the full standard.
The drive selection has been split prior to the cable so only drive 0 will work on the internal and drive 1 on the external. Looking at the Falcon they have not even attached the drive select 1. Curious though if the PSG interrupt 2 is still supported in TOS 4.04 for a second drive, I can add the missing circuitry and add my USB floppy emulator with out drive swapping.
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Re: Second floppy

Postby troed » Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:23 pm

ToasTuk wrote:I believe most of your issues were due to the fact atari did not wire the IDC to the full standard.
The drive selection has been split prior to the cable so only drive 0 will work on the internal and drive 1 on the external. Looking at the Falcon they have not even attached the drive select 1. Curious though if the PSG interrupt 2 is still supported in TOS 4.04 for a second drive, I can add the missing circuitry and add my USB floppy emulator with out drive swapping.


Many thanks for this information. I am about to connect both the HxC Floppy Emu and the original drive in an STE and this would indeed be a showstopper if not solved first.

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Second floppy

Postby ToasTuk » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:00 pm

In that case also be aware that the Power supply was not designed to run two floppy drives hence why the external one needed power of its own. Not sure if the hxc needs much power but is worth checking first.
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Re: Second floppy

Postby wongck » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:51 am

ToasTuk wrote:In that case also be aware that the Power supply was not designed to run two floppy drives hence why the external one needed power of its own. Not sure if the hxc needs much power but is worth checking first.

May be this AF wiki page can give some pointers.
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Re: Second floppy

Postby joska » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:14 pm

ToasTuk wrote:In that case also be aware that the Power supply was not designed to run two floppy drives hence why the external one needed power of its own. Not sure if the hxc needs much power but is worth checking first.


The ST's PSU was designed to supply the HUGE old floppydrives. "Modern" drives use a lot less power. I have an Amstrad 6128. With two "modern" 3.5" floppydrives running at the same time the complete computer draws about 1.2A @5V...
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Re: Second floppy

Postby theatarian » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:40 am

i admit i havent read the entire thread, but as this was my expert area naybe i can clear thing up a touch.

both drives are linked together, so by theory you would need an extension cable with 2 heads as the bog standard st cable isnt long.

my ste is recased in a lighthouse tower and i still use external drive, especially if i need to use happy cart. another way maybe use a floppy to sd emu if storage is the reason.

i'm just awaiting an eiffel, i have a floppy ext cable, so i will be able to remunt my hd card, which has another 3 schugart;s on it. so maybe could have more than 2 floppies without having to use the happy cart.

meanwhile i want to add another internal ide to the falcon.

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Second floppy

Postby ToasTuk » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:41 pm

Just been double checking the schematics and they appear to vary a lot. The Ste does appear to be the case
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1363987593.489749.jpg

But the ST appears to have a mixed set up. I'm guessing by changing w2
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1363987662.726907.jpg

You can give this option but the internal drive does not have drive 1 linked to it.
The Falcon gets worse as they have not linked the connections to the line driver (am26ls31), but with a modification in theory this can be corrected assuming they have not disabled the code in the TOS Roms.

I am doing this modification atm out of interest and be cause I have a USB emulator, not the hxc one but one where a USB stick emulates 99 floppy disks. I can then still have my normal disk drive attached.
If that fails then ill just take a lead and add a switch to redirect which one is in use.
If I'm successful then I could make a version with only 1 solder point.
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