Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

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JeanMars
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Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby JeanMars » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:15 pm

Hi,

This is probably more an Emutos stuff but let's try...
I'm trying to use Hatari to emulate a Falcon and I'd like to have extended resolutions (like with old Blow-up hardware in the past years).
Trying tos492.img, I'm stuck with original Falcon resolutions.
Trying etos512k.img (0.991), Change Resolution is grayed out...
Tried this with several Atari/Hatari screen configurations; any idea to work this out?

Thanks,
Jean
Last edited by JeanMars on Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby ThorstenOtto » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:39 pm

Hatari does some hacks to implement extended VDI resolutions; since this is currently known not to work correctly for 4.04 (or 4.92), it is disabled for Falcon emulation.

Since for extended VDI resolutions you need clean GEM programs anyway, ARAnyM might be a better choice anyway.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby JeanMars » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:05 pm

I was afraid of such a response ;-)
So there is no easy way to have extended resolutions on Hatari? TOS version does not matter so much to me.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby ThorstenOtto » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:30 pm

JeanMars wrote:I was afraid of such a response ;-)
So there is no easy way to have extended resolutions on Hatari? TOS version does not matter so much to me.


You can use TOS 3.06, but then you don't emulate a falcon of course. Or try EmuTOS, but that too lacks the Dsp_ BIOS functions. So it depends what programs you indent to run. As already said, most likely only "normal" applications will properly run with non-standard VDI resolutions, and in that case ARAnyM will be a better choice, since it has a native screen driver, and in generally is much faster.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby JeanMars » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:16 pm

I tried EmuTos but impossible to change resolution; is there anything missing? fVDI may be? I didn't find it for Hatari, only Aranym.
Actually, I'm using Aranym most of the time, Hatari/EmuTos is for additional VISION testing. And yes, VISION is pretty aware of non standard VDI resolutions :-)

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:46 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:Hatari does some hacks to implement extended VDI resolutions; since this is currently known not to work correctly for 4.04 (or 4.92), it is disabled for Falcon emulation.


It's not disabled for Falcon, it's disabled just for TOS v4. VDI mode works fine on Falcon e.g. with the latest Mercurial version of Hatari and latest EmuTOS snapshot.

With TOS v4, one can use the native Falcon / Videl screen extenders with Hatari, like Videl Inside, instead.


As to Aranym... While there Aranym is definitely fastest emulation for GEM programs, and there are several Atari Falcon programs that happen to work with Aranym, it doesn't really emulate Falcon. Aranym DSP emulation isn't compatible with any Falcon DSP-using program I've tried, and Aranym emulates 040 CPU instead of 030 that Falcon has. I assume its MMU emulation is also for 040 instead of 030 (which differ a lot), so any program requiring (Falcon) 030 MMU won't work with it either, but happily those are very rare (unlike Falcon games and other programs requiring DSP).

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby Eero Tamminen » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:49 pm

JeanMars wrote:I tried EmuTos but impossible to change resolution; is there anything missing? fVDI may be?


There's no API for native programs to change Hatari VDI mode, so EmuTOS cannot offer any resolution change for it.

If you run EmuTOS on Falcon without VDI mode, it offers you the resolution dialog, as it will then actually be able to change the resolution.
Last edited by Eero Tamminen on Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby ThorstenOtto » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:50 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:Aranym DSP emulation isn't compatible with any Falcon DSP-using program I've tried


Yes, i've noticed that already. Not even the original Brainstorm JPEG decoder seems to work (although there is of course a better alternative for ARAnyM using the natfeat based driver). If i remember right, DSP emulation originally was ported from ARAnyM to Hatari long time ago, but seems to have diverged a lot since then.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby Faucon2001 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:36 am

I confirm, VIDEL INSIDE works great with Hatari in Falcon emulation mode with TOS 4.04
By the way, it works also with Aranym in non JIT mode and TOS 4.04 and you can reach TC resolution up to a max of 1004 for x resolution. It is an interesting solution as Videl inside + NVDI and TOS 4.04 is more compatible than FVDI. Calamus SL runs fine in 1920x1200x256c in this case.
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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby ThorstenOtto » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:08 am

Faucon2001 wrote:Calamus SL runs fine in 1920x1200x256c in this case.


On a 2nd monitor?

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby JeanMars » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:34 pm

I tried Videl Inside but wasn't able to setup some resolution like 800x600x8, anyone having setting for Hatari?

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby tommo » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:26 pm

Videlity works.

I have used videlity in hatari using tos 4.04.
it works and can make even bigger screens than my real falcon/monitor can handle.

i used it in an older hatari version 1.9 i think.
later versions of hatari probably also work.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby Faucon2001 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:16 pm

Here is the last version of Videl Inside : http://www.philippeworld.net/ftp/Apps/V ... 0v2.03.zip
It works under Hatari with the default resolution file ; I have tested 800x608x256c without issues
If you want to increase the resolution, you'll need to activate the Multisync monitor mode and tweak the frequency.
You can put any crazy low or high frequency, and also use interlaced mode without problem. It's a trial and error process but you can access really high resolutions in mono up to 256c. In TC mode, it's a little bit tricky as you are limited to 1004 for horizontal resolution, but you can have a 1004x1080x16bits if you like ;-)
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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:40 pm

ThorstenOtto wrote:
Eero Tamminen wrote:Aranym DSP emulation isn't compatible with any Falcon DSP-using program I've tried


Yes, i've noticed that already. Not even the original Brainstorm JPEG decoder seems to work (although there is of course a better alternative for ARAnyM using the natfeat based driver). If i remember right, DSP emulation originally was ported from ARAnyM to Hatari long time ago, but seems to have diverged a lot since then.


Aranym DSP emulation is designed to run independently on a separate thread(s), and communicate with CPU only at specific points with specific synchronization.

However, that's not how most DSP-using Falcon software expects it to work. Synchronization is not done everywhere where data moves between processors, because on Falcon there's a certain guaranteed speed difference between DSP & CPU. This means that *both* DSP and CPU emulation need to be (at least to some extent) cycle accurate.

Because of this, Hatari DSP emulation isn't threaded, and runs in same process, and in *lock-step* with CPU emulation. This and cycle-accuracy are the main reasons why Hatari Falcon emulation needs much beefier machine than Aranym. This also means that JIT version of 68k CPU emulation is unlikely to work well enough with anything using DSP (JIT code typically runs a block of emulated instructions at a time, but accurate DSP emulation requires running several DSP instructions after each CPU instruction).

Laurent of course fixed massive amount of bugs & missing features from the DSP emulation, but I think missing cycle accuracy is main reason why Aranym DSP emulation is useless with Falcon programs.

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Re: Change Resolution disabled (Emutos)

Postby Faucon2001 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:47 pm

here is a config file for Videl Inside with extended and TC resolutions : http://www.philippeworld.net/ftp/Apps/V ... de/vi2.dat
It's going only up to 1280x1024 as I don't have presently a bigger screen.
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