Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

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rpineau
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:38 pm

That could work ... if I still had a 68030 on my mother board. Mine was removed a long time ago by Rodolphe (Czuba). So I no longer have the option of booting in 030 mode.
Regards, Rodolphe
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby dml » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:56 pm

rpineau wrote:That could work ... if I still had a 68030 on my mother board. Mine was removed a long time ago by Rodolphe (Czuba). So I no longer have the option of booting in 030 mode.
Regards, Rodolphe


I have spares if you want to put one back in the hole ;-)

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:01 pm

Thanks for the offer Doug but I'd rather not have the 68030 and make my Falcon a full 68060 machine (right now it's a 68040 machine). I don't play games on it anyway. So I would prefer to add code to the TOS (there's space at the end) and directly boot in 68060 mode.

Regards, Rodolphe.
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:07 am

Experience hang up on RST on the AB often too. One of the reset circuit cap values can be changed, not sure how "dirty" a timing improvement it is, seems to help most times. So does a shotgun in the dark :)

Playing with the 060 on the AB, found too if the magic number is "found", the Falcon boots off the cart port before most anything significant occurs. With an Interconnect Connect Solutions 040 to 060 adapter, the Falcon would come up on the diagnostic cart.
Lacking the tools you have, basically followed trace by trace and watched values flip flop.
Don't think I had the 157 working correctly, as said was working blind.

Pulled out some notes taken years ago. Confused now on the logic, see where TA and MI are tied during RST for one bus cycle. If the AB is controlling TA, there could be some skew between the MACH control of TA, MI and the Falcon RST circuit. That's the critical function of the 157, to hold off the 060 clock until (some unknown magic time) RST cycles. The cap issue causes problems even on the 030 Falcons.

Also found an early Afterburner Cook Book release, about 50 pages. It's all hardcopy, will scan it if it helps bring back memories :)

Your work is so far beyond what I tried, same dream though :). I'd used a Quadra "Quad-Doubler", modified some of the Apple specific circuits, failed there. Could not get the AB to boot an 040 with that adapter, about as far as it went. Have some of the MACH chip pins ID's, from the Mighty Sonic, they are basically the same.

All for this, could use not only an adapter for my Afterburner, but it would be drop in for the Milan as well.
Can I order some parts or something?

Very Cool stuff.

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:39 am

Ok, now I'm excited. Was just looking into the Milan box to sum it up.....

The Interconnect socket takes 5 Vcc from the parent processor socket, converts it to 3.3 Vcc on the adapter. It does not use a 157 to hold off CLKIN on the 060, stating the user must implement that themselves if necessary (true for Atari). They run CLK signal through an 04 inverter, depending on the 2ns or so delay to satisfy the 040/060 bus requirement. The clock is the PLL clock from the AB board.

Had though of replacing the AB clock distributor with an 88LV926 or 88916 (have both). That might tighten up timing on the AB card and keep skew to a minimum between the AB LOGIC and CPU. Driving the Falcon motherboard off the same clock driver, everything should be hunky dory.

After many failed attempts to fire up the 060 using the socket, altered the Vcc input to the adapter socket to 5Vcc. Also by passed the 04 inverter on the clock line, attempting to get the 040 to boot "through" the socket. No success there either.

If you want the 040/060 socket to test with, having the analyzer should make it a snap to figure out why the 040 doesn't boot, then implement the 157 to the adapter. Failing that, could test it on the Milan, which should require no more than the above to boot (aside from Milan 060 boot load installed on the Milan). If it boots there, you have a pretty clear schematic to follow from the Milan to trace back to the Falcon hardware, and good starting point on the softs. Had first tried to located the 3.3 Vcc 040 version, never came across one, thinking a modification may be keeping it from booting. Interconnect states the 3.3V 040 will work on their adapter.

If you'd like to test or play with it, be glad to send it your way.

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:03 pm

Thanks Rustynutt.
The 157 is used to drive CLKEN* for the 060 external cycles. It has a requirement on the skew of max 5ns which is why the 157 I used is rated for 4.5 ns. It also buffer IPL[0..2]
The reset signal drive the A/B output of the 157 to hold the signals high during reset and then enable the second input on all the 157 gate.
Reset (RSTI) is directly connected between the 040 and the 060 socket.
I'll fix my reset of the Falcon (replacing the caps) soon so that I can see if it helps.
As you saw, I did check the TOS boot and yes the TOS jump to the cartridge address space if it finds a magic long at $00FA0000. So we should be able to use this to do some debugging but then it jumps back to the TOS and the TOS jumps to $00E7B000 where it probably does some nasty stuff to the MMU so we would need to prevent this from happening.
As for the MACH210, if you have the pinout that would be very helpful. Actually any additional doc would be very helpful.

I think my current adapter would work in a Milan as is providing that there is enough space around the 040 socket for it. If you get me some measurement I can probably change the layout (if it doesn't conflict with the AB040) to make it physically fit.
I'm not home this weekend so I wont be able to work on this before probably next weekend (even though I'm off on Tuesday so I might have time to build the 2nd adapter to run more test (the first adapter is on its way to Doug's)).

Regards,
Rodolphe
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:19 am

Haven't given up, setting time aside to unpack Milan board. Have photos, of course measurements would be nice. Think the card you have made is about the same physical size of the Quad Doubler for a Quadra 040. That fits with one or two 060 pinout sockets stacked.

I'll have to scan what I traced on the MACH chips, found the engineering pad, just not the time.
Would be interesting to see your schematics. Have schematics Uwe Schneider provided, and as simple as they are, were difficult to implement on my own. Like the design you went with, side by side. Much easier than a multi-layer board. Uwe mentioned it was difficult to produce the Milan adapter, and expensive.

Maybe you've come across the Sinclair Q60 project. Contacted two of the developers last year, they are not active per say, but from talking to them think they are waiting for opportunity to move to the next milestone with the project. I'd looked around for one of the boards with no luck. There is system level documentation for the 060 motherboard on the site, some of the info may be of interest troubling shooting where TOS "goes wrong". Admittedly, during conversation it wasn't as much interest in their project, as being able to adapt the technology to a TOS system. Being the Q60 has an ISA bus, there are quite a few possibles for video and NIC cards under both TOS, MiNT and whatever else the "hip" Atarians are running on their machine :). Think that may have put them off discussing engineering of their board, emails fell off. I'd jump at the chance to pick one up.

http://www.q40.de/q40.deproducts.html

Hope all is well. This is a project worth following through, for both the Afterburner as well as the Milan.
I'd thought before retiring, there would be all the time in the world for the fun stuff.
I was wrong :)

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:41 am

I can post the latest version of the schematics. Doug has received his board (I haven't assemble the 2nd one for myself yet as I got busy with other stuff).
The Q60/Q60 project is interesting.
As for where the TOS crash we think it's in the code that sets up the PMMU as it's quite different from the 030 one.
Early in the TOS the code jump to the cartridge port if a magic long is present so that's one way of adding code to do basic PMMU config and other testing before modifying the TOS and burning an EPROM.
I'm interested in anything you have on the AB040 MATCH (or anything regarding the AB040).
Regards, Rodolphe
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:21 pm

Quick update.
I've been busy with other stuff and I haven't had time to do anything with my second prototype (not even assemble it). I haven't even had time to setup the Falcon in the last 3 month so this has taken a place on the back burner until I'm done with other project related to my other hobby (astronomy).
I don't think Doug had any time either to work on this with the proto I send him.

Regards,
Rodolphe
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby dml » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:51 pm

rpineau wrote:Quick update.
I don't think Doug had any time either to work on this with the proto I send him.


It's true I haven't had much time (or the space) for hardware stuff recently and was trying to get another software project towards finished.

I was chatting with Mike recently about what to do with it next (e.g try to boot it while holding off 060 during reset), and the 040 machine is unpacked again but not opened it up to do much more as yet.

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:44 am

Well we all fizzled out for a bit.
Had a good lead on an EE that was to replace a VIDEL and a few other IC's on one of the main boards. He seems to have gotten busy as well. Picked up the VIDEL from Best, a 33MHZ 030 and later model DSP to toy with on the board I let smoke out of. Maybe now the first of the year has passed, he will find time.

Need to get back to basics, get the 157 circuit mounted with the Interconnect Socket and fire up the 060 on the Milan. With that as a proven CPU, when Doug has time, he could fiddle a bit more with the code. Will order a few sets of 060 sockets off eBay shortly for fodder stock.

On the Milan there is a patch that is programmed into NVRAM if using the 060. Maybe looking into what is being done there might turn on a light bulb. It is modified TOS 4.04 after all.

Lastly, fit the damn CT60 i've has sitting around for 14 years of so......

That, or offer up my Milan for a Milan 060 adapter :)

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby joska » Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:48 am

rpineau wrote:The source I have are the original source sent to me (I don't remember who send them to me, from memory it was the original author but that was a few years ago).
So the source are properly commented. The version I have is 5.08 with the Eclipse fix.


Do you mind sharing these sources? I have an Afterburner/Eclipse-equipped Falcon, and I have this idea to replace the ROM with flash ROM and try to patch EmuTOS to initialize the Afterburner and the Eclipse...
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby bladeomega » Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:56 am

This is an impressive thread. :cheers:

I think the best way is, first test the adapter e.g. in a Milan060 computer. Is this ok, then modify the TOS4.04 and the TK libs. Btw. the guys in a1k.org make their own 68040/060 adapter (a little bigger as the cpu) for boosting 68040 speeder cards and it works. For pcb an pic you must signed in.

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:14 am

I got someone to lend me a Milan 040 so I might be able to restart testing this once I get a case and power supply for it.
Rodolphe
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby bladeomega » Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:10 pm

rpineau wrote:I got someone to lend me a Milan 040 so I might be able to restart testing this once I get a case and power supply for it.
Rodolphe


Rodolphe, that's musik in my ears. :D

joska wrote:
rpineau wrote:The source I have are the original source sent to me (I don't remember who send them to me, from memory it was the original author but that was a few years ago).
So the source are properly commented. The version I have is 5.08 with the Eclipse fix.


Do you mind sharing these sources? I have an Afterburner/Eclipse-equipped Falcon, and I have this idea to replace the ROM with flash ROM and try to patch EmuTOS to initialize the Afterburner and the Eclipse...


I am not familar with EmuTOS, but I think that's another good idea, send the source to Jo Even. :wink:

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:07 am

[quote="Rustynutt"]Some years back asked Rodolphe about some of these things, he pretty much felt it a waste of time as the CT63 was available..... To his credit, it does take a lot of effort, and he is busy with other projects.

"I had another idea. If I can get the AB to boot using a modified version of the TK driver, which only applies pure, in-situ patches to the ROM - just enough to get it as far as the AUTO folder or Desktop (but maybe not stable for general use) then you'd have something you know should work and it should be electronics from there onwards?"

Doug, wake up! :)

Messing with the AB. Have you looked at EMU TOS? Wondering if the TKROM Driver is able to patch it as it does TOS, or is this something you'd have to play with? Or anyone (Jo) think EMU TOS wouldn't have to be patched on the 040 / AB?
Thanks!

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby joska » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:59 pm

Rustynutt wrote:Have you looked at EMU TOS? Wondering if the TKROM Driver is able to patch it as it does TOS, or is this something you'd have to play with? Or anyone (Jo) think EMU TOS wouldn't have to be patched on the 040 / AB?


I have tested EmuTOS on the Afterburner. It finds and use fast-RAM, but stability is very poor. Probably some cache-issue, I'm afraid I haven't had time or motivation (got a CT60e!) to look further into this now.
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:29 pm

There are enough cache patches in the tool kit to create a demo :)
My concern, when working with the 060.
If (and when) the adapter socket is finished (too much fun here as well), maybe Doug can look into a TOS patch.
I only need to get the Fuji displayed :)

FWIW, going to remove the Nemesis to try boosting the AB clock to 62mhz using two 060 PLL clock drivers off the 16mh COMBEL clock. The signal can also be inverted output, will also eliminate the buffered clock to the SDMA.
That failing, will try to read the PLACE code, and reprogram faster IC's, if they can be found.
Something Doug thought might be a limiting factor of high clock speeds on the AB. I know the 40mhz 040 will run at 50mhz, the DiiMo Cache on the Quadra runs at that speed.

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:52 pm

If you overclock it to high you will feed the BCLCK with 62MHz and the 88915 which then double it to feed the PCLK. I'm fairly sure the 88915 can't support these speeds.
My AB040 never worked properly at 50MHz, was somewhat ok at 40MHz and very stable at 32MHz
I know that not all AB040 were equal (mine is a first gen), so yours might fare better at higher speed.
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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:59 pm

They are rated at 100mhz. Also. I have the 060 clock drivers, nearly the same.
Reason to use two is they only double the input clock. But, the data sheet specifically states they can be daisy chained for multiple distribution of the input clock with virtually no delay from source.
I will start out only using one to verify everything at 32mhz.

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:01 pm

Right now having some cap issues on the MB with the 040. I has the reset cap mod, but something else seems awfoul. It will boot with the diagnostic cart, yet has to set and bleed down before booting the MB....always something.
BTW, skys up here are pretty decent in the summer :)

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:09 pm

also, reading what the buffer board does for the PAK 030, wondering if the AB wouldn't benefit something such as that. I don't really have a clue once I get into the document.

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby rpineau » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:40 pm

Ok, let us know. My AB040 is in a box right now but will go back in the Falcon in the next few month once I can re-install all my Atari stuff (everything is in boxes as we're doing some construction on the house).
As for the sky .. I was in Oregon last week for the eclipse and indeed the sky looked decent but some days were every smoky because of some of the fire going (I stayed in Eugene and went to Corvallis for the eclipse). :)

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:16 am

Rustynutt wrote:Right now having some cap issues on the MB with the 040. I has the reset cap mod, but something else seems afoul. It will boot with the diagnostic cart, yet has to set and bleed down before booting the MB....always something.


Bahhh. Darn Rabbit Holes! After some hours of troubleshooting, one Afterburner working fine, and a KNOWN functioning unit failing to boot, swapped out the CPU. Never ever ever occurred here :)
Booting now, no intermediate reset required :)

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Re: Falcon Afterburner - Please Help!

Postby Rustynutt » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:16 pm

Testing the AB more in-depth, it's ran all night with a 25cm fan blowing across it :)

Have well documented auto folder order and contents from past history.

Attached an 80gb SCSI 2.5" via those cool 80/50 pin adapters.
HDD V10.3 8-1gb parts.

Have never used BigDos, not installing MiNT just yet, really wanted more drive letters available (for testing).
BigDos-f used from V8 archive.
BigDos was tested before and after a very short list of auto folders.

Using NemBench to profile CPU, with BigDos-f loaded, performance of the 68040 dropped over 1000% im some test.
Adjusted TKROM driver (5.07) settings with same bench results.
With BigDos out of the boot up, performance returns back to expected 32mhz 040 marks. Reads and writes were especially hammered.

Had seen a thread on the Atari .de site, which seemed unresolved with the 060 at the end.

Is this a known issue? Haven't seen a more current archive, given as it's a dated software update.


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