Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby czietz » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:47 pm

OK, so it fits mechanically. But does it also run? I haven't seen any screenshots or so, yet.

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby exxos » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:25 pm

czietz wrote:OK, so it fits mechanically. But does it also run? I haven't seen any screenshots or so, yet.


If they don't run GB6 then I'm not so convinced ;) AFAIK the core was missing some signals which the Atari needed. Maybe they changed it no idea. Though when I contacted them about using their core on Atari booster.. no help and no interest from them. I got stonewalled that much I wasn't even sure if they actually even had a working core full stop.

If the Atari core is just a stone-throw away, then likely it will be on the market way sooner than anything I am working on. With the core being a lot faster anyway.. it begs the question if its really worth me spending time on the boosters any longer.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby rpineau » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:47 pm

Chris, it will all depend on the sale price. You and I have invested a lot of time and money in creating boosters (68000 and 68020) and tried to make them as cheap as possible so that people can afford them.
On the Atari age forum I saw prices in the $200 - $300. So this is not cheap and there might still be a market for your accelerators (and may be mine if I can keep the price down).
That being said if they release a Vampire ST (and Falcon) with video and what not, there will always be people to buy these. I think there is a place for both type of accelerators.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby vizfizz » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:37 pm

exxos wrote:
czietz wrote:O
If the Atari core is just a stone-throw away, then likely it will be on the market way sooner than anything I am working on. With the core being a lot faster anyway.. it begs the question if its really worth me spending time on the boosters any longer.


Don't write yourself out yet! As I mentioned over on Atari Age...

People are looking to increase the performance of their STs and Falcons to run legacy software. At some point though, acceleration overwhelms what the software was originally designed for. Thus games can't be played, graphic applications won't work because of synchronization issues, and so forth. Unless we see a resurgence of developers willing to write new software for the ST platform...what's the use of having a super powered ST? I personally would love to do 3D animation on the Atari for the shear novelty of it...but the reality is only limited software of that kind exists. So If I'm going to buy an accelerator or booster (which I am :D ) I'll want something that reliably speeds up performance without sacrificing compatibility too much. Too me, it sounds like your products fit that bill better.

Just out of curiosity... what do folks want to use a 68080 equipped ST for? At that point...why not an emulator?

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Frank B » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:39 pm

I might be interested when it's properly 68k compatible. At the moment it's missing instructions (BCD for instance) implemented in the first 68k.
It's skyrocketing in price. It has a very vocal fan boyish community polluting every thread on Amiga forums with unrealistic expectations. It's also dramatically increasing the price of retro Amiga hardware. It spun out of the failed Natami project which was far more interesting in scope. If you want a really fast Atari, aranym on an obsolete PC will be faster and more compatible! Natami failed miserably. I'm taking a wait and see attitude to this. I don't think the Amiga community can deliver a project like this. Too much infighting. Too much obsession with making money. Look at the lack of open hardware designs. I'd not throw the towel in quite yet ;) The Atari retro scene is a lot nicer than the Amiga one.

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby calimero » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:52 am

Frank B wrote:I might be interested when it's properly 68k compatible. At the moment it's missing instructions (BCD for instance) implemented in the first 68k.
It's skyrocketing in price.

Price of Vampire is because (I do not know right word in english for people that buy stuff and than resell it later for greater price) buy bunch of Vampires in first place.
Majsta and Apolo team sell Vampire for 250e. Prices on ebay are resellers (is this right word?).

Frank B wrote: Natami failed miserably. I'm taking a wait and see attitude to this. I don't think the Amiga community can deliver a project like this. Too much infighting. Too much obsession with making money. Look at the lack of open hardware designs. I'd not throw the towel in quite yet ;) The Atari retro scene is a lot nicer than the Amiga one.

yes, Amigians are like Romulans from Star Trek :D

---
I also do not see point of 100MHz ST - there is no single app that need such power (except Calamus and similar) but than again: you are limited to 640x400 b/w or 16 color low res programs which are already optimized to work flawlessly on 8MHz.
Vampire would have much more sense on TT or Falcon
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby calimero » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:56 am

@exxos there is also 68020 accelerator for Amiga 500 (I think that there is thread on eab forum) currently in development and lot of people have interested in it. It should be 100e. I think that 020 (or something like 3-4x ST speed) is enough for original ST.
There is also 50MHz 68000 accelerator for Amiga!
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby exxos » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:02 am

calimero wrote:@exxos there is also 68020 accelerator for Amiga 500 (I think that there is thread on eab forum) currently in development and lot of people have interested in it. It should be 100e. I think that 020 (or something like 3-4x ST speed) is enough for original ST.
There is also 50MHz 68000 accelerator for Amiga!
IF you want I will find links...


IIRC they used a 68000 , SEC I think ? Which seems to push beyond 50mhz. I did look into that, but the ST needs 3 wire bus handshakes, The SEC only has 2, so I gave up with that "direction". The 68HC000 only seems to touch at 38Mhz before dieing.

I don't keep up with what Amiga guys are doing. There is the 020 being worked on by various people here, but not many are working on new solutions. I think when I tested the 020 it actually ran slower than the 68000 with the cache disable, so there are bugs to fix in the code but nobody seems to have noticed that yet :)
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:23 am

calimero wrote:I think that 020 (or something like 3-4x ST speed) is enough for original ST.


Yes, in the same way as 640kB is enough for everyone ;)
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby wongck » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:12 pm

joska wrote:
calimero wrote:I think that 020 (or something like 3-4x ST speed) is enough for original ST.


Yes, in the same way as 640kB is enough for everyone ;)

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby GokMasE » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:20 pm

joska wrote:
calimero wrote:I think that 020 (or something like 3-4x ST speed) is enough for original ST.


Yes, in the same way as 640kB is enough for everyone ;)

:cheers:

Well put, my thoughts exactly :lol:

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby calimero » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:11 pm

^
but you will have unlimited fast ST with 640x400 b/w resolution. Why do you need unlimited speed?
What programs need so much speed?
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby vizfizz » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:32 pm

calimero wrote:^
but you will have unlimited fast ST with 640x400 b/w resolution. Why do you need unlimited speed?
What programs need so much speed?


Well the primary applications that come in mind for me are 3D and raytracing applications. Granted, the Amiga has a better array of those types of programs (Lightwave, Turbo Silver, etc)...but the Atari does have a few that could benefit. (POV Raytrace, Cyber Scupt, CAD3D, InShape, NeoN, etc). If someone were able to obtain the source code for one of those programs to take advantage of an Vampire ST, then faster accelerators like these could promote a resurgence in ST based animation and graphics programs.

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Frank B » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:55 pm

vizfizz wrote:
calimero wrote:^
but you will have unlimited fast ST with 640x400 b/w resolution. Why do you need unlimited speed?
What programs need so much speed?


Well the primary applications that come in mind for me are 3D and raytracing applications. Granted, the Amiga has a better array of those types of programs (Lightwave, Turbo Silver, etc)...but the Atari does have a few that could benefit. (POV Raytrace, Cyber Scupt, CAD3D, InShape, NeoN, etc). If someone were able to obtain the source code for one of those programs to take advantage of an Vampire ST, then faster accelerators like these could promote a resurgence in ST based animation and graphics programs.


If you want to run them on a 68060 at 5 ghz speeds, you can just use aranym. That way you also have FPU support.

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby calimero » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:10 pm

^
And NeoN, InShape are Falcon only!
Because of this I said that Vampire like speed have sense much more on TT or Falcon than on ST.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby 1st1 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:43 am

vizfizz wrote:People are looking to increase the performance of their STs and Falcons to run legacy software. At some point though, acceleration overwhelms what the software was originally designed for. Thus games can't be played, graphic applications won't work because of synchronization issues, and so forth. Unless we see a resurgence of developers willing to write new software for the ST platform...


What you tell means: The Firebee makes absolutely no sense.

A Vampire can make any ST into something, what Firebee never can be. Fully compatible on CPU level at high speed. No illegal 68K instructions anymore with Coldfire.

Don't forget, Vampire is not only CPU accelerator. The AMIGA guys bring new graphics modes to their machines with it, at least AGA modes to an OCS machine. One can integrate (Super)Videl into vampire. Vampire has SD card slot for mass storage. It's just some VHDL to make this to an AHDI compraible IDE port. Vampire is additional (fast-)memory in Amiga. On ST it can enhance ST mem to 4 MB, plus 8 MB ALT RAM, plus many MB TT-RAM. Vampire can be FPU, can be M56K DSP. It is planned on AMiga platform to use Vampire as new sound hardware. Vampire can bring STE/TT-DMA, F-Sound to any ST.

A vampired ST still has ROM port for Cubase dongle. A vampired ST can run Calamus in high speed on internal graphics card.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Frank B » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:31 pm

But it's NOT 68k compatible. It's not compatible with a SINGLE member of the 68k family. It's something distinct which no compiler supports. It's not quite a 68000 because there's missing instructions. It's not an 040 with integrated FPU or MMU. There's no MMU or 040 FPU. It's not an 030 because it lacks the 030 MMU, It doesn't support the 68882 or 68882 FPU yet either. At the very least it needs to support every instruction from the original 68k. If it doesn't how the heck can C developers target it? At least Coldifre has a compiler!

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Faucon2001 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:35 pm

I fully agree with you 1st1.
I am a big supporter of Aranym as it is a fantastic platform but I also believe that it can't and shouldn't be compared to real hardware. It's not one solution against the other, It's only different.
We are all into vintage computing and if I may compare with old cars preservation, we share a passion not only on usage but also for the object. Some may like to have the real original thing, some only the experience, others will love to hotrod it. What's the point to maintain an old VW beetle or an old Austin Mini and customize it, as it should be more logical to use the new beetle or a new Mini?
Well, pleasure ! I still have a lot of pleasure switching on my old Atari, and if I can get extra power out of it, better.
This project sounds fantastic and I hope that it will get through; if it does, I'll buy one for sure.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby stimpy » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:18 pm

exxos wrote:
IIRC they used a 68000 , SEC I think ? Which seems to push beyond 50mhz. I did look into that, but the ST needs 3 wire bus handshakes, The SEC only has 2, so I gave up with that "direction". The 68HC000 only seems to touch at 38Mhz before dieing.


From what I can remember the 2 wire bus grant is pretty much the same as 3 wire and could probably be made to work with a logic gate or perhaps just not wiring one up. I had the SEC cpu running.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:21 pm

calimero wrote:but you will have unlimited fast ST with 640x400 b/w resolution.


You may not know that the Vampire 2 also has HDMI output? On the Amiga there is a graphics card implementation in the FPGA, no reason why an ST version couldn't do the same.

calimero wrote:Why do you need unlimited speed?
What programs need so much speed?


Ever used a C compiler? ;) Retro computing nowadays seems to be playing games or using emulators. Don't forget that a lot of "real work" is being done on these computers too. And with Vampire 2 speed you can ofcourse create new stuff that does things an original ST could never do.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:22 pm

Faucon2001 wrote:I still have a lot of pleasure switching on my old Atari, and if I can get extra power out of it, better.


Amen to that!
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby joska » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:28 pm

vizfizz wrote:At some point though, acceleration overwhelms what the software was originally designed for. Thus games can't be played, graphic applications won't work because of synchronization issues, and so forth.


Those are programs that only works on an 8MHz 68000. If it works on a 16MHz 68000, it will also work on a 200MHz 68000.

vizfizz wrote: Unless we see a resurgence of developers willing to write new software for the ST platform...what's the use of having a super powered ST?


I bet all the CT6x-, Hades- and Milan-users out there can answer that question.

vizfizz wrote:At that point...why not an emulator?


If you like that sort of thing, why not? But why would you want to use a super-fast emulator when you can have a super-fast, real ST?
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby exxos » Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:55 pm

stimpy wrote:
exxos wrote:
IIRC they used a 68000 , SEC I think ? Which seems to push beyond 50mhz. I did look into that, but the ST needs 3 wire bus handshakes, The SEC only has 2, so I gave up with that "direction". The 68HC000 only seems to touch at 38Mhz before dieing.


From what I can remember the 2 wire bus grant is pretty much the same as 3 wire and could probably be made to work with a logic gate or perhaps just not wiring one up. I had the SEC cpu running.


If its possible id gladly give the CPU a try at higher speeds.
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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby Anima » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:49 pm

joska wrote:Those are programs that only works on an 8MHz 68000. If it works on a 16MHz 68000, it will also work on a 200MHz 68000.

Well, I wouldn't bet on it.

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Re: Amiga 600 Vampire 2 accelerator board

Postby DarkLord » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:53 pm

I assumed Jo was talking about TOS computers - not Pentium class machines?
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