FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

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FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby m0n0 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:16 pm

Hello there,

not many new features - but finally I merged my "get-rid-of-windom" branch into master.

This means one dependency less, and also a more responsive GUI...
Maybe not everything did improve. I hope to have it working well without windom.... but maybe that didn't always succeeded,
it's up to you to test that :)

Now I can concentrate further developments on improvements... (I worked on the windom removal for about 2 month) - if I like to :).

Some things which are really new:
- Full-Text Search is now integrated into the browser window.
- The settings dialog appears as one large form....
- The GUI is more responsive during page loads, because I use evnt_multi_fast now, and I do not limit the
rate of calls to evnt_multi_fast when netsurf is active (like I did with EvntWindom() - which at least took 10ms for each call)

I think I will release some optimized test builds soon.

Until then, please test the autobuilds from here:

http://ci.netsurf-browser.org/builds/atari/

- Please remember to lower the amount of conccurent fetchers under network (2 is an good value)
- And also edit Choices after first run of netsurf and set min_reflow_period to something larger, like 750 or so.
The default value causes to many screen redraws during page load.

Thanks for testing & Greets

Another hint:

The larger you set the minimum font size, the faster is the character redraw.

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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Mathias » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:37 am

The builds 850 and 851 refuse to start at my FieBee with the error message; "unable to load GEM ressource". The build 843 is working well.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby rian_ata » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:18 pm

Mathias wrote:The builds 850 and 851 refuse to start at my FieBee with the error message; "unable to load GEM ressource". The build 843 is working well.


Same issue here. Tried the 851 mk68 on my CT63 Falcon with both the fresh package (uncompressed the archive and start ns020.app) and copy the contents from the uncompressed archive into my working NetSurf installation folder (previous version).

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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby jfl » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:45 pm

Mathias wrote:The builds 850 and 851 refuse to start at my FieBee with the error message; "unable to load GEM ressource". The build 843 is working well.

You must cd to the netsurf folder and run it from there. I know, this is not user-friendly, but I'm not responsible :)
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Mathias » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:02 pm

jfl wrote:You must cd to the netsurf folder and run it from there.

I must do what?? I do not understand.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby vido » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:44 pm

Mathias wrote:I must do what?? I do not understand.

You have to run Netsurf from the directory which contains executable file. ;)

I didnt try it yet as I dont have time. But will do it!

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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Mathias » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:04 pm

vido wrote: You have to run Netsurf from the directory which contains executable file. ;)

Sorry, I don´t get it. Which "executable file"? Which directory? What means "running it from there"? That I have to copy Netsurf to any other folder?
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Ektus » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:23 pm

The working directory (active directory) must be set to the directory the netsurf binary is located in. The desktop should do this for you, but it might not. In that case, look for related settings, or start a cli, change directory to the netsurf location, and start the program.

cd /u/f/netsurf/
./ns020.app

Something like that.

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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Mathias » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:55 pm

Hmm, sounds like a bunch of Unix stuff, ...

Ektus wrote:The working directory (active directory)
Whats that? What for is a "working directory"?

Ektus wrote:must be set to
What does it mean to "set a directory to"? And, how do I "set" a directory?

Ektus wrote:In that case, look for related settings,
Where are these settings? Where can I look for them?

Ektus wrote:or start a cli,
What is a "cli"? Do you mean a shell? If yes, the FreeMiNT setup at the Bee has (gladly) no shell.

Ektus wrote:change directory to the netsurf location,
Change how? From where? I do not understand. What you are talking about.

Ektus wrote:and start the program.
cd /u/
That "u" was the useful hint. As you seem to talk about some Unix-Stuff, I tried to go to the Netsurf folder via "u" not via partition "c". And it works.

So the - for me - useful hint is: "Got to the netsurf folder from the partition "Freemint" ("u") not from "c"."
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby m0n0 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:05 pm

...

Where are these settings? Where can I look for them?


For example, with teradesk, select the file you want to execute... then go to options -> Set program types - there you have it...

Btw. I had no problem running netsurf for the first time and when I navigate to disk D: (where netsurf resides) teradesk automatically navigates to U:\d\ - maybe it's different with Thing. But it doesn't matter - even when I use D: directly with teradesk... netsurf launches without problems.

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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby jfl » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:59 pm

Mathias wrote:If yes, the FreeMiNT setup at the Bee has (gladly) no shell.

Great. Don't include things that others may want to use but that I don't want to use. Nice mentality.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Mathias » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:49 am

jfl wrote:
Mathias wrote:If yes, the FreeMiNT setup at the Bee has (gladly) no shell.

Great. Don't include things that others may want to use but that I don't want to use. Nice mentality.

Come on, thats not fair!

For ages MiNT came with all that Unix stuff and a totally different kind of "thinking". It was completely unusable for people like me. When I understood that MiNT can be used without all that, just like GEM and what for I love Ataris, I asked for such a setup - yes. But it was not my final decision, but a kind of team decision, and mainly pushed by Jo Even. Now there is the possibility to use mint in easy ways like just GEM, and thats great. People like you or m0n0 who like to use a shell and that stuff can always use it. And the most important point - they have the knowledge to install it. On the other side people without Unix knowledge don´t have the possibility to get a clean graphical orientated MiNT. That means the question is more if we like to complicate things a lot (shell, ext2, unix folder structure, ...) for all users, and if we like to force everybody to think in completely different (Unix) ways, when those who like always can change it, but those who don´t cannot!

As we see with this Netsurf example here, it is totally unneccessary to use/think this Unix way.

So it is not about "I don´t include things that you and others want to use". It is about the FireBee FreeMiNT setup is that clean and GEM/graphical oriented that now for the first time everybody can use it, and nobody is forced to care about that (completely different) Unixlike stuff, while those who like, can easyly do so.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby m0n0 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:02 am

So, why do you say "gladly"? It's not "gladly" that there is no shell coming with the firebee freemint setup - it's simply annoying for people that urgently need it. I mean, you know why I'm at it right now, and I think it's just annoying. On the other side around - it wouldn't hurt if there is an shell, but you don't use it....

anyway, please stop talking about that here.... this thread is not about basic computer usage ;)

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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Mathias » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:18 am

m0n0 wrote:So, why do you say "gladly"? It's not "gladly" that there is no shell coming with the firebee freemint setup - it's simply annoying for people that urgently need it. I mean, you know why I'm at it right now, and I think it's just annoying. On the other side around - it wouldn't hurt if there is an shell, but you don't use it....

anyway, please stop talking about that here.... this thread is not about basic computer usage ;)


Asking a rhethorical question, attacking me directly and publicly, expose your own point of view, and than forbid me to answer, or at least say something, ... bravo!

Back to topic, all previus version of netsurf worked well, regardless from which folder they got opened, even with Thing. Since build 850 they require to be doubleclicked in a window that is accessed via drive "u" not partition "c". So there must have happened something why it doesn´t work in usual ways anymore.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby m0n0 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:52 am

So there must have happened something why it doesn´t work in usual ways anymore.


Yep, previously the resource was loaded by windom, now it is loaded by GEM.... afaik GEM uses shel_find() to find the resource file... maybe windom did a more sophisticated job here.

Asking a rhethorical question, attacking me directly and publicly, expose your own point of view, and than forbid me to answer, or at least say something, ... bravo!


Yes, sometime there must be a cut. I mean... this discussion will go on forever..... We should continue the dicussion elsewhere, that's what I mean. Of course I do not forbid to talk ;)

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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby wongck » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:33 pm

Mathias wrote:For ages MiNT came with all that Unix stuff and a totally different kind of "thinking". It was completely unusable for people like me. When I understood that MiNT can be used without all that, just like GEM and what for I love Ataris, I asked for such a setup - yes. But it was not my final decision, but a kind of team decision, and mainly pushed by Jo Even. Now there is the possibility to use mint in easy ways like just GEM, and thats great.


Sorry off topic.

Yeah. I was going to say guess who did the installer. :lol:
I am not sure but did FB states that it comes with SpareMint as well??

Come on guys. They packaged Mint is a standard GEM multitasking environment and that's all needed.
You can install SpareMint on it to make it Unix-like.
I liked the Unix-like environment because suddenly i can do alot of stuff on it easily.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby shoggoth » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:43 pm

Jo Evens point of view in this case isn't exactly a secret, and as much as I respect him and his right to his opinion, I think it's sad that it has influenced the standard FireBee distro this way. It's like pitching the whole thing to non-coders - and that doesn't make sense at all. Having this stuff installed by default doesn't make the system less user friendly, it doesn't prevent anyone from using it, it's not huge (it's 2013). I love the fact that you have a nice distro + installer and all that, but this design decision is just plain wrong, and the team decision seems to be too influenced by some single individuals + the idea that not including a unix setup would somehow appeal to "the normal user". At this stage, it would make much more sense to have a "turn key" distro so that developers can basically turn the machine on, and start building stuff right away. And that means GNU, imo.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby Mathias » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:55 pm

OK, can please some admin put all the FreeMiNt setup postings to another thread!? Starting with cloning that message: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20443&start=275#p224952
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby joska » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:32 pm

shoggoth wrote:Jo Evens point of view in this case isn't exactly a secret, and as much as I respect him and his right to his opinion, I think it's sad that it has influenced the standard FireBee distro this way. It's like pitching the whole thing to non-coders - and that doesn't make sense at all.


You get this completely wrong. Even though I'm no fan of "unix"-setups I don't want to stop others from using it. But I'm not competent or interested enough to create such a thing. However, the FreeMiNT setup currently installed on shipped Firebees is prepared for this. Some competent person can create a "unix"-module that will work very nicely with the setup already shipped to customers - and some competent person might actually do this.

The reason for going for an all-GEM solution is *not* to exclude the unix-fans, but to include the "normal" users. And so far the feedback from the customers indicates that this was the right decision. I wrote GEM-tools to configure networking, selecting screen modes, selecting desktop and editing/selecting keyboard language. But none of these prevents an addition of a "unix"-setup later on, it's just that nobody has made something like this! Atleast nothing that can be released.

Anyway, SpareMiNT, EasyMiNT and Gentoo are already available and can be installed on the Firebee. It's not harder to get "unix" on the Firebee than on other Ataris. But atleast it's much easier to get started with MiNT.

shoggoth wrote:Having this stuff installed by default doesn't make the system less user friendly, it doesn't prevent anyone from using it, it's not huge (it's 2013). I love the fact that you have a nice distro + installer and all that, but this design decision is just plain wrong, and the team decision seems to be too influenced by some single individuals + the idea that not including a unix setup would somehow appeal to "the normal user".


That depends on what you mean by "unix". Do you mean someting that mimics a "real" unix-setup, like SpareMiNT/EasyMiNT attempts to do? With slow booting, complex startup-scripts, init, inetd, servers etc? Now *that* definitely makes the system less user friendly and more complex than it has to be. Or do you mean a shell with fileutils, textutils etc available, gcc, make etc? This makes much more sense.

shoggoth wrote: At this stage, it would make much more sense to have a "turn key" distro so that developers can basically turn the machine on, and start building stuff right away. And that means GNU, imo.


It's currently shipped with AHCC, Digger and ResourceMaster, set up and ready to go.
Last edited by joska on Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby jfl » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:27 pm

joska wrote:
shoggoth wrote:Jo Evens point of view in this case isn't exactly a secret, and as much as I respect him and his right to his opinion, I think it's sad that it has influenced the standard FireBee distro this way. It's like pitching the whole thing to non-coders - and that doesn't make sense at all.
You get this completely wrong. Even though I'm no fan of "unix"-setups I don't want to stop others from using it. But I'm not competent - or interested in - creating such a thing. However, the FreeMiNT setup currently installed on shipped Firebees is prepared for this. Some competent person can create a "unix"-module that will work very nicely with the setup already shipped to customers - and some competent person might actually do this.

Indeed I installed gentoo over the FreeMiNT setup and only had to edit a couple of files to mix both. I still miss a few things but nothing so important that I had to bother with yet.
joska wrote:The reason for going for an all-GEM solution is *not* to exclude the unix-fans, but to include the "normal" users. And so far the feedback from the customers indicates that this was the right decision. I wrote GEM-tools to configure networking, selecting screen modes, selecting desktop and editing/selecting keyboard language. But none of these prevents an addition of a "unix"-setup later on, it's just that nobody has made something like this! Atleast nothing that can be released.

To speak for myself, I would love to have a SpareMiNT-like easy-to-install option for the 'Bee. But as long as none is build for the ColdFire CPU, it doesn't make sense to propose it, from a vendor point of view. It wouldn't be fair to the machine to provide, for example, the GNU toolchain in glorious 68k emulation. It wouldn't make it any faster and wouldn't be good publicity...

joska wrote:Or do you mean a shell with fileutils, textutils etc available, gcc, make etc? This makes much more sense.

Yes, this would be a nice addition. Stuff like mkfs.ttp too -- if that's at all supported by the OS.
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Re: NetSurf GEM Port

Postby m0n0 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:54 pm

Please.... stop this discussion, please, start a new thread... I like clean threads, when it comes down to real users questions, it's more easy to find answers when the thread isn't poluted ;)

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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby Mathias » Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:29 pm

This discussion developed inside the Netsurf thread. I keept some Netsurf postings here as well at the beginning, as it should show how the problem about this "Unix or not-discussion", about the FireBee FreeMiNT setup started at all. It was a practical problem, that I didn´t (and still do not ) understand what the Unix-guys want me to do, … :twisted:

I hope I found a correct title now for this new thread, and we can discuss this issue and understand each other better with carefully reading and talking about it.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys

Postby BlankVector » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:07 pm

Mathias wrote:Now there is the possibility to use mint in easy ways like just GEM, and thats great.

Yes, Jo Even made amazing work.
Users can enjoy the true nature of FreeMiNT/XaAES: a multitasking extension of TOS, with modern internal kernel features.

Mathias wrote:On the other side people without Unix knowledge don´t have the possibility to get a clean graphical orientated MiNT.

This is true.
Configuring FreeMiNT/XaAES is a mess.
This is why Jo Even's work is invaluable: bring FreeMiNT/XaAES to the end user.

Mathias wrote:People like you or m0n0 who like to use a shell and that stuff can always use it. And the most important point - they have the knowledge to install it.

This is wrong.
Configuring a windowed command-line environment for FreeMiNT is complicated.
Even more complicated than a graphics-only setup.

As a comparison, most Linux users have a few command-line knowledge. But very few of them would be able to install the whole system from scratch (I mean without a package manager, etc.).
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:42 am

BlankVector wrote:
Mathias wrote:People like you or m0n0 who like to use a shell and that stuff can always use it. And the most important point - they have the knowledge to install it.

This is wrong.
Configuring a windowed command-line environment for FreeMiNT is complicated.
Even more complicated than a graphics-only setup.


Especially when FB (AFAIK) doesn't ship even an interactive shell. Adding read-line enabled Bash to Firebee configuration wouldn't take much. Then TosWin2 "start shell" option would actually work.

With some symlinks in mint.cnf, the basic unix directory structure could be located anywhere, even a bit deeper in VFAT file system, but of course a real file system without VFAT limitation would be preferred for that.

Unixy MiNT software is available from here:
http://sparemint.org/sparemint/html/packages.html

They're m68k versions, but with suitable MiNT setup, it would be possible to automate their build for ColdFire.

Most minimal command line setup would contain following packages from there:
- base
- bash (interactive version)
- fileutils
- termcap

About everybody would have also:
- findutils
- gzip
- tar
- grep
- less
- pstop
- sed
- sh-util
- textutils

A bit more advanced setup could contain also:
- bzip2
- gawk
- mint-util
- mktemp
- psmisc
- time
- tree
- unix2dos
- unzip
- which
- zip

File system tools would add:
- dosfstools
- e2fsprogs
- file
- freemint-sbin

For basic GEM/TOS/MiNT development (this is the largest set):
- binutils
- gcc (4.x version supporting ColdFire)
- gdb
- gemlib
- make
- man
- mintbin
- mintlib
- mintlib-devel
- pml

For developer collaboration, file transfer & version control:
- cvs
- diffutils
- patch
- openssh
- openssh-clients
- rsync
- subversion

For kernel & server log handing:
- logrotate
- sysklogd

For building Linux software:
- autoconf
- automake
- ed
- m4
- perl
- pkgconfig

Building Linux command line programs typically requires at least following library packages:
- libtermcap
- libtermcap-devel
- ncurses
- ncurses-devel
- pcre-devel
- popt
- readline
- readline-devel
- zlib
- zlib-devel

For package management & building packages:
- cpio
- rpm
- rpm-build


BlankVector wrote:As a comparison, most Linux users have a few command-line knowledge. But very few of them would be able to install the whole system from scratch (I mean without a package manager, etc.).


For reference, here's documentation on building Linux from scratch:
http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/

Such documentation is missing for MiNT. (And Linux documentation obviously cannot be applied as-is)

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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:51 am

If one wants to make ZIP of Sparemint RPM package contents e.g. on Linux, so that it could be extracted on Firebee, one could use e.g. following script to extract Sparemint package contents:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
#
# script for extracting SpareMiNT RPM packages:
#   http://sparemint.atariforge.net/sparemint/html/packages.html

#set -x -e

if [ $# -lt 1 ] || [ "$(echo $1|cut -b1)" = "-" ]; then
        echo "Usage: ${0#*/} <Atari Sparemint RPM packages>"
        echo
        echo "Extracts the given packages contents and shows"
        echo "what scripts a real package install would run."
        exit 1
fi

ok=1
for pkg in $*; do
        if [ \! -f $pkg ]; then
                echo "Given package '$pkg' doesn't exist!"
                ok=0
        fi
done
if [ $ok -eq 0 ]; then
        exit 1
fi

# extract contents of given RPM packages
for pkg in $*; do
        echo $pkg:
        rpm2cpio $pkg | cpio -v -i -m -d --no-absolute-filenames --no-preserve-owner
        # mkdir stuff is important, install-info not
        rpm -q --scripts -p $pkg | grep -q mkdir
        if [ $? -eq 0 ]; then
                rpm -q --scripts -p $pkg
        fi
        echo
done


(I didn't attach the package because that got "The extension sh is not allowed" error.)


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