68080 Apollo Core

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Orion_ » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:01 pm

Mathias > well, we already discussed this years ago, you already told me how amazing the firebee is, and 3 years later, nothing changed, so, it might be amazing in the future, yet 6 years after the release, it's still not.
I know it's not your fault, but to answer you on the open source vs commercial side, at least the Apollo team is skilled enough to make something amazing out of their FPGA. (see 68080 performances)
And for the final customer, it's really difficult to buy a firebee so much money with the "it's open source so, please contribute yourself" idea.
for that much money, we would really want something that keep its promise.
I'm just hoping that the stand alone Vampire card will be Atari compatible one day, because this will be the most amazing atari platform out there (and way cheaper than current price for falcon/firebee)
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Rajah Lone » Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:48 pm

Orion_ wrote:I'm just hoping that the stand alone Vampire card will be Atari compatible one day, because this will be the most amazing atari platform out there (and way cheaper than current price for falcon/firebee)

- for now, Vampire V4 standalone is a GEM clone, FreeMiNT+EmuTOS with enhanced screenmodes, like the FireBee
- the prices may be similar to the FireBee (Vampire V2 for Amiga 500 is about 400 EUR)
- FireBee or Vampire V4 standalone : same problem. If you want compatibility, then code FPGA. The Apollo Team work mainly for the Amiga realm, there are very few Atari people who contributes to this project.

So do not hope anything because you will be disappointed.
This thread is pointless, I should return to dev (B+ project).

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby mfro » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:01 pm

My understanding is that cores >x14 are experimental builds and not guaranteed to run on every Vampire V4. Shown graphics is a little misleading (although I can understand developers are proud of any extra speedup they achieve).

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby mfro » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:23 pm

Mathias wrote:... nearly nobody understands that the Vampire uses the same FPGA as the FireBee does for 10 years now ...


Just to honour the truth: to my knowledge, this isn't true anymore.

At least if we talk about the announced V4 (that appears to become your only choice if you don't want an Atari with a Commodore logo on it ;), i.e. an A500 with a Vampire V2). To my understanding, the V4 uses a Cyclone IV which is - marginally - faster but is/can be (I didn't find any specs, so do not know which type they will use exactly) about 3-4 times larger than the EP3C40 used in the FireBee.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:11 pm

VAMPIRE V4 standalone price was anounced: https://www.vesalia.de/e_vampirev4sa.htm




499.90 €




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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby tjam » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:38 pm

Cyprian wrote:VAMPIRE V4 standalone price was anounced: https://www.vesalia.de/e_vampirev4sa.htm




499.90 €




ugh...


That's quite much for emulation board. You can just buy Raspberry pi 4 for about 40,- euros and I bet it's faster for 68k emulation than Vampire v4. I don't know enough about hardware vs software emulation to really compare them, but both approaches probably have their benefits.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Rustynutt » Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:10 pm

Will it be fully Toaster compatible?
Should I buy Sony Vegas expecting a compatibility mode?

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby ThorstenOtto » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:19 pm

tjam wrote:I bet it's faster for 68k emulation than Vampire v4.


I rather doubt that. A pi4 is far away from the performance of modern desktop PCs, and even with JIT, you won't be able to achieve the results of a V4 (if the numbers they give are correct).

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby SweYC » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:35 pm

vido wrote:
I really dont get that. I want faster Atari clone to run GEM productivity software like internet browser, text editors, ...
For the compatibility I have Falcon. I dont know any other computer mor compatible with the Falcon as Falcon is! Even if you change only CPU frequency of the Falcon you lost some degree of the compatibility. Not to mention other things. For the ST software I have MiST.

And I don't get another thing. There is a FireBee project which is 100% open project so any one can change/add FPGA firmware or software, change software, (add MiST to the FireBee FPGA for ST compatibility, ...) but almost nobody of the developers care about that.

Now there is a closed comercial Amiga project caring mostly about Amiga comunity but people would like to have new Falcon clone. Nothing wrong with that! I like this project. Probably I will buy stand alone. But FireBee has much more potential as any one who is interested can contribute or even produce it.


I am not fan of clones. To me a FPGA clone is as Atari as it is Aranym, which is both, fast and compatible. And it offers internet acces, etc, etc. Im using it occasionaly to work on HDD images, where its speed is helpfull a lot! In this light, im not too eager to buy yet another odd hardware device, to do what i already can do on my other odd and non atari device: PC. On other hand i can understand the appeal of dedicated clone, and thats why i bought Firebee. To test it and to acknowledge the work of many developers. On end it didnt work for me, esp the hdd acces is a no go for me, so i sold it to someone who will use it more... But i am, same as you, surprised how Firebee is left to oblivion, and all the hype is on Amiga standalone device. Firebee on other hand offers atari hardware to be used, etc... It is a proper Atari clone and im still gratefull to all people behind it! Why Atari community is drolling about Apollo and on other hand ignore Atari devs device, which is arround quite some time is beyond me....

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby wongck » Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:21 pm

From what I know, there will be a new software suite release for the Firebee sometime after summer of 2019.
Finger crossed for something new.
Especially that new firmware update for faster HDD access & video. I hope these will be included.

May be a bunch of Atari users drooling over that Apollo but no I don't want a Amiga in my Atari.... it a Frakenstein. :angel:
I would rather get a Pi4 and run beepi, may be cost 1/10 of the price and way better supported hardware.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:16 pm

both machines:
- can run proper Atari GEM applications;
- can be reprogrammed / FPGA;
- can't run neither Atari games nor demos;
- can't have Atari compatible hardware;
- have massive price.

in additional:
- CPU fully compatible with Atari: Firebee no, Vampire yes;
- Opensource: Firebee yes, Vampire no;
- future: Firebee no, Vampire yes;
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby SweYC » Sun Jul 28, 2019 4:29 pm

Cyprian wrote:both machines:
- can run proper Atari GEM applications;
- can be reprogrammed / FPGA;
- can't run neither Atari games nor demos;
- can't have Atari compatible hardware;
- have massive price.

in additional:
- CPU fully compatible with Atari: Firebee no, Vampire yes;
- Opensource: Firebee yes, Vampire no;
- future: Firebee no, Vampire yes;


FireBee can use Atari hardware, like mouse, keyboard for example. As for future; how can you declare a NO for FireBee?

And all that, can be done with Aranym - Can run proper and some improper GEM apps, even some tricky ones. And best of all: have no price. Except if one is without computer... Why shall i then buy Vampire?

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:11 pm

Cyprian wrote:both machines:
- can run proper Atari GEM applications;
- can be reprogrammed / FPGA;
- can't run neither Atari games nor demos;
- can't have Atari compatible hardware;
- have massive price.

in additional:
- CPU fully compatible with Atari: Firebee no, Vampire yes;
- Opensource: Firebee yes, Vampire no;
- future: Firebee no, Vampire yes;

You realy dont have a clue what are you talking about.

1st. How can something closed source have brighter future as open one? When/if Apollo team decides that they dont see any commercial reason to continue with the Vampire. What then?
2nd. How FireBee cant have fully compatible 68k CPU if you can put even Apollo CPU on it if you have permision from Apollo team and knowledge? You just have one real CPU more in the FireBee as Vampire has.
3rd. How FireBee (and Apollo) cant have compatible hardware if you can just flash MiST on it (them)? It is possible even to run MiST in parallel with the (basic) FireBee at the same time. Just someone has to do it.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:21 pm

SweYC wrote: FireBee can use Atari hardware, like mouse, keyboard for example. As for future; how can you declare a NO for FireBee?

just to clarify, "can't have Atari compatible hardware" - by hardware I mean hardware registers. It means that applications (games/demos) which use direct access to the hardware will not work.
Also, EmuTOS also allows you to use Atari IDE drives with Vampire. Atari mouse hardware is almost the same as amiga's one. it is easy to use them as a replacement.

SweYC wrote: And all that, can be done with Aranym - Can run proper and some improper GEM apps, even some tricky ones. And best of all: have no price. Except if one is without computer... Why shall i then buy Vampire?

exactly.
If ones would like to use Atari machine, then he can just use Aranym/Hatari/Steem/BeePi for free. There is no need to buy FireBee or Vampire.

But when ones would like to use real hardware, then it has a choice now - FireBee or Vampire. Both Atari compatible on GEM level and not compatible on hardware level. The first one with Atari roots, the second one with great fully compatible processor with fancy new instructions.


vido wrote:You realy dont have a clue what are you talking about.


1) the same story with FireBee. We know Coldfire unfortunately is dead-end, and we don't know any plans for further development of Firebee.
We know 68080 is much better (compatible/faster) than Coldfire and has open future.

2/3) would be cool. but now unfortunately still not available, and my guess is that will no be available in this year
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby mfro » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:29 pm

Cyprian wrote:
SweYC wrote: FireBee can use Atari hardware, like mouse, keyboard for example. As for future; how can you declare a NO for FireBee?

just to clarify, "can't have Atari compatible hardware" - by hardware I mean hardware registers. It means that applications (games/demos) which use direct access to the hardware will not work.


It's true that the FireBee isn't fully Atari compatible. But it is not true that it is incompatible on the hardware register level. From the programmer's viewpoint, it has all registers (video, MFP, IDE, RTC, ...) you'll find on a Falcon except those that aren't implemented yet (e.g. SCSI, DSP).

Basically, it is a (much - about 40x - faster) Falcon with a ColdFire instead of the 030 processor.

It is also true that most of the demos and games written for the Falcon will not run. But that's not because of incompatible hardware registers, but because of the different (reduced) ColdFire instruction set. Most of the changes in EmuTOS (and MiNT) that are required to make them run natively on the FireBee are because of these differences.

The m68k emulation (cf68klib) in FireTOS that traps most, but not all instruction set differences (not technically possible for some) allows to run many native m68k programs.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:35 pm

Cyprian wrote:just to clarify, "can't have Atari compatible hardware" - by hardware I mean hardware registers. It means that applications (games/demos) which use direct access to the hardware will not work.
Also, EmuTOS also allows you to use Atari IDE drives with Vampire. Atari mouse hardware is almost the same as amiga's one. it is easy to use them as a replacement.

Again. You are talking nonsense!!!
What hardware is FireBee missing?!? What registers? Which Atari do you have in mind when you talk such nonsense?

But when ones would like to use real hardware, then it has a choice now - FireBee or Vampire. Both Atari compatible on GEM level and not compatible on hardware level. The first one with Atari roots, the second one with great fully compatible processor with fancy new instructions.

You forgot Suska, MiST, MiSTer and PC is also compatible on GEM level :)

1) the same story with FireBee. We know Coldfire unfortunately is dead-end, and we don't know any plans for further development of Firebee.
We know 68080 is much better (compatible/faster) than Coldfire and has open future.

How do you know Coldfire is dead end? Is is still selling and is used in new products, you can buy licence and produce your own version of Coldfire as ASIC or FPGA and you can nake it more compatible if you want. 68080 it is not faster as Coldfire. It is something at the same speed as the Coldfire (V4e) used in the FireBee. Coldfire V5e is much faster and can be used in the FireBee if we finaly get documentation for it. And how much is 68080 more compatible?

2/3) would be cool. but now unfortunately still not available, and my guess is that will no be available in this year

Well ... it wont be never available if there will be people like you not supporting it!!! There is no company behind this project, it is PURE OPEN SOURCE VOLONTIRE project. And people like you spreading specatulations and lies only harm this project!
I believe you dont have bad intentions and you like Apollo project (me to!!!), but please talk about facts. I wish to Apollo team all the best and they have my support as I think that can become good also for Atari community.

Oh. As it seems you know ... When Atari clone with Apollo core it will be awailable?

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:50 pm

vido wrote:You realy dont have a clue what are you talking about

vido wrote:Again. You are talking nonsense!!!

vido wrote:What hardware is FireBee missing?!? What registers? Which Atari do you have in mind when you talk such nonsense?

vido wrote:And people like you spreading specatulations and lies only harm this project!


you language is immature and just offensive.
I'm not going to respond you any more if you are going to behave in that way.


Just from my memory: lack of support hardware like the BLiTTER, DSP, Sound Matrix. what about buggy Videl?

ColdFire is dead end. Reasons are incompatibility with 68000 and very very slow Flex-Bus.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Cyprian » Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:51 pm

mfro wrote:It's true that the FireBee isn't fully Atari compatible. But it is not true that it is incompatible on the hardware register level. From the programmer's viewpoint, it has all registers (video, MFP, IDE, RTC, ...) you'll find on a Falcon except those that aren't implemented yet (e.g. SCSI, DSP).

Basically, it is a (much - about 40x - faster) Falcon with a ColdFire instead of the 030 processor.

It is also true that most of the demos and games written for the Falcon will not run. But that's not because of incompatible hardware registers, but because of the different (reduced) ColdFire instruction set. Most of the changes in EmuTOS (and MiNT) that are required to make them run natively on the FireBee are because of these differences.

The m68k emulation (cf68klib) in FireTOS that traps most, but not all instruction set differences (not technically possible for some) allows to run many native m68k programs.

There is no need to convince me, I'm a huge fan of FireBee (just google here on AF) and I would like to buy one for myself.
I really appreciate FireBee team, they did and do great job (I mean both sides hardware and software).
But we should not be blind for see alternatives.
I'm not anymore conviced to ColdFire, when we have alternatives like 68080. Would be cool to get rid CF and have integrated 68080 wit FB
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby tjam » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:08 pm

Cyprian wrote:I'm not anymore conviced to ColdFire, when we have alternatives like 68080. Would be cool to get rid CF and have integrated 68080 wit FB


Well... we have alternatives for emulation like PC running Aranym. 68080 is hardware emulation and I really don't see reason to buy 499,- euros emulation board when I can run Aranym for free. 68080 is also closed source, so it's no go for me.

Many folks prefer real hardware and ColdFire provides that.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby vido » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:41 pm

Cyprian wrote:
vido wrote:You realy dont have a clue what are you talking about

vido wrote:Again. You are talking nonsense!!!

vido wrote:What hardware is FireBee missing?!? What registers? Which Atari do you have in mind when you talk such nonsense?

vido wrote:And people like you spreading specatulations and lies only harm this project!


you language is immature and just offensive.
I'm not going to respond you any more if you are going to behave in that way.


Just from my memory: lack of support hardware like the BLiTTER, DSP, Sound Matrix. what about buggy Videl?

ColdFire is dead end. Reasons are incompatibility with 68000 and very very slow Flex-Bus.


Well ... I can say I am sorry I offended you but I wont (not yet).
If you think talking wrong facts about the FireBee and your opinions (which is your right!) as the opinion of the community because you use word "We" and not "I" is not offensive to the developers which developed all that for free and still believe and develop for this project, then you are wrong again! And when you talk about wrong facts as it is truth then this is called lie.

So ... ST,STE,TT dont support all mentioned hardware you just mentioned. What now?

And ... from hardware view. The whole Vampire is just a part of the FireBee board. How is FireBee less compatible as Vampire if you can put whole Apollo core on the FireBee? The difference is just that FireBee has Atari compatible ports and aditional CPU which is Coldfire.

And you are talking about the Vampire standalone (I think you are talking about it) as the fact as it is allready here and available running Atari software faster and it is more compatible as the FireBee. I dont see that. I see it now in the stage as NatAmi was in the past.

Nobody is saying Vampire wont be released or it wont be more compatible as the FireBee. But you are talking about that like Vampire is already here and is more compatible, faster, ...

Anyway ... I talk to you this way as I find your talking also offensive to me!
I believe the same can feel somebody else but I can talk just in my name.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby shoggoth » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:44 pm

Come on guys. Enough with the banjo duelling already.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby wongck » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:54 pm

mfro wrote:Basically, it is a (much - about 40x - faster) Falcon with a ColdFire instead of the 030 processor.


That may be an issue being so fast.... Will there be issues with the older software ?
Or after that we get into the same old argument.... need now software developers for new software?
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:53 pm

I sort of like the idea of the 68080. Not bothered that it is hardware-emulation or closed source. But I still have interest in the Firebee and wish I would have bought one in the last production run.

I hope there will be some new units produced after the end of summer software update that has been discussed on the forum.

With Exxos remaking the ST mainboard with the ability to add a CPU expansion card, maybe it would be a good fit for something using the 68080.

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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby Atarieterno » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:19 am

Given that the average age of Atari users is 50 years: will we have time to see a Vampire connected to an Atari computer?
In the meantime we can entertain ourselves by discussing in this forum.
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Re: 68080 Apollo Core

Postby mfro » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:44 am

Cyprian wrote:But we should not be blind for see alternatives.

I certainly agree.

But then, we shouldn't be blind to see what it really is: an Amiga. I'm not (and never was) in the epic Atari vs Amiga wars, but people should realise that the Apollo/Vampire running TOS they see right now on YT and elsewhere is an (admitted, very fast) Amiga running EmuTOS for Amiga. A (very impressing) result that is only possible because of Vincent's efforts to make EmuTOS run on that hardware. It is however - contrary to what many people seem to (or wish to) believe - never going to be a (true) Atari clone. You could easily do the same with basically any Amiga HW (fast or slow, FPGA based or not) out there.

Cyprian wrote:I'm not anymore conviced to ColdFire, when we have alternatives like 68080. Would be cool to get rid CF and have integrated 68080 wit FB


I (sadly) admit that ColdFire appears to be a dead end. At least on the long run.

OTOH, people should also realise the main reason (besides Vampire availability) the above mentioned YT films are possible: because (thanks to hundreds of man years of many voluntary Atari enthusisasts) we have access to a full OSS software stack (EmuTOS, FreeMiNT, fVDI, ...).

It is true that we also have many OSS components (FireBee FPGA, Suska, MiST, fx68k and others I apologise upfront I might have forgotten) for the 'Super Atari' FPGA implementation you appear to dream of.

I don't see how these could be (legally) combined with the closed source Apollo core, however.

For two reasons: lack of FPGA development resources. License incompatibility.


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