Heatsink: how to mount it?

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Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby mikro » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:24 am

This may be a pretty dumb question but really, I have no idea. Is the thermal paste enough? It would seem that Rodolphe Czuba had used exactly that (at least I can't see any screws or whatever) so my question is are there any special features / types I should be aware of?

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby Robson » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:37 am

Thermal adhesive glue or double sided thermal pad (I use this).
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby leech » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:40 am

I will try to find the time this weekend to pop open my Amiga and take pictures, but it has these clips that slide into slots that hold the heatsink onto the 68060. I wonder if I can find another set online.

The Amiga guys all recommend a 486 HSF, I am not sure if I will bother with an overclock, so may leave mine naked.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby mikro » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:02 pm

OK, I have only something called "Thermally conductive grease", I guess that's not a glue at all. ;-)

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby wongck » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:12 pm

completely opposite no?
Stuff slide off with grease.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby mikro » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:15 pm

While reading in my supplier's catalogue, I've noticed a strange thing. They sell "thermally conductive glue" with note "not designed as a replacement for heatsink compound". So what the hell that means? I should mix them together or what? :D

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby wongck » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:23 pm

I remembered my pentium uses heatsink compound, not conductive glue. The fan sits on top of the heatsink compound and there is a bracket that fasten the fan down. It's for easy removal of the cooling system. With glue, you do not need fasteners.

I have seen ppl stick passive heatsink using conductive tapes and conductive glue to other chips that are surface mounted.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby 1st1 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:28 pm

Hello, so here is my proposal how to fix it. It's using the following materials

- Pentium P54C/P55 cooler with fan (new old stock from my collection)
- 2x 20mm M3 plastic screw
- 6x M3 plastic nut
- 1x office clamp, 77mm long

The screws, nuts and office clamps I found in my local building market in the screws departement. (to germans: Globus Baumarkt)

ct60e0.jpg

The screws are put in the holes in the opposite corners

ct60e1.jpg

They are fixed by two nuts. They also limit the feather wire's way down.

ct60e2.jpg

This is the large office clamp. I unbended it to a staright wire. And then...

ct60e3.jpg

This is the final form of my feather, customized to the size and rips of my heat sink. You can see that the eyelets will fit on the scres in the next picture. Please note also, that the feather does not lay flat on the ground. This is to have some additional pressure when it's mounted.

ct60e4.jpg

Heatsink (with some thermal paste) mounted ontop of the 060, and the feather is fixed with another two nuts on the two screws. By turning the nuts down I can increase the pressure.

ct60e5.jpg

Side view, pressure still can be increased, but this seems to be enogh, I can lift up the whole board with the fingers at the heatsink without feeling that the board moves different than the heatsink.

ct60e6.jpg

Other side view, with fan mounted.

Unfortunatelly the CT60e board has no connector for standard CPU fans, so I will have to add one. My idea is to solder it ontop of the power connector for the Falcon mainboard, using Ground and +12V.

Now I wait for the arrival of my 512 MB Kingston PC133 DIMM.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby mikro » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:43 pm

1st1, that's one hell of an inventive thinking, great work!

I've settled with the thermal glue in the meantime. And you're right, the lack of fan power pins is disappointing, the original CT60/63 had this.

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby leech » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:59 pm

hmm, my picoPSU came with a cable with a 4pin molex and SATA connector, would be easy enough to get a cable that goes from the 4pin molex to a fan, or even getting a fan that uses that connector normally.

https://www.amazon.com/kenable-Manhatta ... B008LBET9S

I think this is pretty much what I have in my Amiga.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby wongck » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:03 pm

mikro wrote: the lack of fan power pins is disappointing, the original CT60/63 had this.

You win some, you lose some.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby dhedberg » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:22 pm

I've used 3M thermal tape to mount heat sinks on surface mount chips with great results. I bought the tape from Mouser. Here's a link:
http://www.mouser.se/search/ProductDeta ... r=485-1468
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby trecool » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:23 pm

Following 1st1s instructions i did a lazy version
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby Sturm » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:59 pm

So ? The only option to power the fan is to use the picopsu molex ? Should it be 5v or 12v ?

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby troed » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:28 pm

Sturm wrote:So ? The only option to power the fan is to use the picopsu molex ? Should it be 5v or 12v ?


That depends on your fan ;)

(Also, I'm not sure why everybody mounts fans right from the start ... I'd start with a heatsink and then check the temperatures)

/Troed

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby 1st1 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:12 pm

Trecool, your idea to use wire from cloth hanger is brilliant. But I dislike the cable tie.

troed writes: "Also, I'm not sure why everybody mounts fans right from the start"

Easy explaining: Those 68060 are made for 50 or 66 Mhz, but we want to run them with about 100 Mhz. And this in the narow keyboard computer of Falcon that has no effective active cooling (the fan beneath of the keyboard is more or less a joke).
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby Trixster » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:28 pm

I just used two tiny tiny blobs of super glue in two opposite corners of the 060. Thermal paste scraped very thinly over the rest of the cpu and heatsink base. Hold firmly in place and after a minute it's held fast. If there's a need to take it off again a little twist is all that's required to break the seal. The cpu is unaffected.

I've done this with plenty of cpus in the past with no noticeable problems.

For the falcon the 65x65mm heatsink I've chosen is a little too wide to use the holes you've guys have used for mounting posts.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby troed » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:49 pm

1st1 wrote:Easy explaining: Those 68060 are made for 50 or 66 Mhz, but we want to run them with about 100 Mhz. And this in the narow keyboard computer of Falcon that has no effective active cooling (the fan beneath of the keyboard is more or less a joke).


No, it's not "easy explaining". If it was I hadn't questioned it. This is what willy wrote earlier:

On the screen you can see temperature of 68060R50@66Mhz WITHOUT any radiator !! after ca. 2 hours of work. I didn't noticed any significant temperature change when i started some demos. Max temp was ca.73C WITHOUT any radiator. - viewtopic.php?f=97&t=31210#p312493

A heatsink is vastly more efficient at dispersing heat than having nothing at all. Thus, if 66MHz works without a heatsink I'm assuming you can go pretty far with a good heatsink, without the need of a fan.

edit: I think it's important to remember that there was a time when heatsinks were for the extreme cases, and the norm was to run without*. This started to change right about the times of 486DX100 and Pentium chips, i.e, at the same time as the 68060. Having read up on the 68060 revisions, Motorola apparently tapped out at a 42um manufacturing process, but Freescale Rev 6 was 32um. That's not a tiny change - and would make the chips run a lot cooler at the same frequencies.

*) https://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic ... 7&t=656495

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby 1st1 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:09 pm

I think 73°C is already a quite high temperature for such an old CPU. I don't want to risk to broke it. And additionally we don't know where inside the CPU is that sensor, is it more at peripherial area, or at the point with the highest load? Where this sensor is, is maybe not the hottest spot. Maybe that hotspot is already near 100°C where electromigration (moving of silicon atoms because of electromagnetic fields) begins? When the 060 was created there still was not much experience in cooling and temperature monitoring design of such processors. I'd like to be on the safe side. (A Pentium 100 or 80586DX4/100 also needed active cooling!)
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby troed » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:34 pm

1st1 wrote:(A Pentium 100 or 80586DX4/100 also needed active cooling!)


No, quite often not. The P90 and P100 were 3.3V btw, like the 68060, compared to the P60/P66 which were 5V.

https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/wh ... r.2310065/

Feel free to study what I wrote about the manufacturing process (Rev 1 are 0.60um, then moves to 0.42um and finally Rev 6 is 0.32um) on the different 68060 runs. For comparison, the 3.3V P90 and P100 were manufactured at 0.6um.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_I ... d_Pentiums

I'm thinking something along these lines, pure copper. If a fan turns out to be needed I'll walk down that path then - but I wouldn't assume it if you have a later rev 060.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Qu ... a25b&tpp=1

But of course, if you want to put a fan in, by all means do so. I was simply questioning why it seemed everyone assumes it has to be done.

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby mikro » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:33 pm

Btw, on the topic of the heatsink and fan, don't forget the original fitting instructions:

After you have to stick the furnished heatsink on your 060. Last, it is an absolute necessity to use thermical glue or the 060 may be dammaged by strong warming.

[...]

ATENTION : the fan must blow on the heatsink, this means the sticker of the fan must be UNDER and not viewable when the fan is positionned !


However, this warning ("ATENTION") appears only in the instructions for CT60, the one for CT63 mentions only the first part (using thermal glue).

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby Robson » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:58 am

Sturm wrote:So ? The only option to power the fan is to use the picopsu molex ? Should it be 5v or 12v ?


There are endless possibilities of course but probably the best is to use one of the unused connectors of the psu in my opinion.
Mine has a sata and a 4 pin atx psu connector for example, and probably will never be used so losing one of those is probably the way to go forward. Most of fan connectors using the 4 pin molex contains 1 male and 1 female connector not to fully take it.

On one of my falcon boards I removed the original falcon fan cable from the mobo, replaced with 2 pin header so this can be an option too but that is at the other side of the board.

You can even build in a fan control potmeter if you want and adjust speed with a control voltage if you like.

The best way for this would be monitoring the temperature and action if it's above the trigger voltage.
For PCs you can buy complete systems but probably not worth installing the whole in a falcon.
A simple solution (and probably overkill) is something like this (I haven't checked the full specs so don't buy it :)):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-PWM-PC-CPU- ... 2174066548
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby Robson » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:00 am

1st1 wrote:Hello, so here is my proposal how to fix it. It's using the following materials

I like your solution, clever.
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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby trecool » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:33 am

All 486/100 and P/90+ I have seen had always a fan on.

Judging from all the commets and Willys info I could say anything above 66mhz should have a fan if you want to be on the safe side. Otherwise just a heatsink should be fine.
Of course if someone has tried those tests would be nice giving the readings.

I don't think thermal glue is better that thermal paste + clips.

I dont get why blowing on heatsink. In all cpus and all radiator systems in general, the fan blows air out...

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Re: Heatsink: how to mount it?

Postby troed » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:48 am

trecool wrote:All 486/100 and P/90+ I have seen had always a fan on.


That's why I supplied a link proving my comment.

Judging from all the commets and Willys info I could say anything above 66mhz should have a fan if you want to be on the safe side. Otherwise just a heatsink should be fine.


You can always do anything to be on the safe side. Since Willy doesn't know if people have 0.6um or 0.32um CPUs (the difference, again, is huge) all recommendations must cater for 0.6um.


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