News games checked.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:44 am

dlfrsilver wrote:The Doctor Doom's Revenge US version was a sealed copy i bought in USA, it was a leftover from a software shop. I have unwrapped/unsealed myself the game, and i never try to deprotect the game.


I just help checking those dumps and I don't know/care it is sealed or not.
In this case, I would say that software shop is problematical.

dlfrsilver wrote:Prehistorik 2 is perfectly working. Both original disks are OK. So i don't know why you've found these errors.


In your dumps, the 5 files are bad : GLACE.TRK, LEVEL4.SQZ, LEVEL5.SQZ, LEVEL8.SQZ, LEVELE.SQZ
You can use Hxc to extract and compare them with any working cracked version from abandonware sites.
After replace those files, your copy works fine for me, too.
Since you said it works perfectly (on a real machine ?). Can you redump this game again (in both index and splice mode) ?
Thank you very much.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:36 am

coolhaken wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:The Doctor Doom's Revenge US version was a sealed copy i bought in USA, it was a leftover from a software shop. I have unwrapped/unsealed myself the game, and i never try to deprotect the game.


I just help checking those dumps and I don't know/care it is sealed or not.
In this case, I would say that software shop is problematical.


Ok, let me be more specific : the game disk is unmodified !

Here is the full explanation: Each time a professionally duplicated disk made by Trace Moutain Duplication machine is written, tampered, modified by a standard IBM PC, Atari ST, Amiga, Amstrad CPC drive, whatever, with the right tools, you can see that the disk has been tampered.

The signal written by a standard FDC differs from the one use to trace on the floppies with a professional duplication machine.

From this start point, if what you were saying was correct, i would then see that the disk is seen as modified or written on. But it's not the case.

I just made a dump with my kryoflux board, and i have been able to process the dump and generate an IPF out of the disk dump. The tool we use doesn't allow IPF generation when a disk is modified. It indicates by a message in red that some or all tracks are modified.

In the case of Dr Doom's Revenge, There is only one explanation. The protection has been patched before the disk was duplicated.

That's why the disk is not seen as tampered.

dlfrsilver wrote:Prehistorik 2 is perfectly working. Both original disks are OK. So i don't know why you've found these errors.


In your dumps, the 5 files are bad : GLACE.TRK, LEVEL4.SQZ, LEVEL5.SQZ, LEVEL8.SQZ, LEVELE.SQZ

You can use Hxc to extract and compare them with any working cracked version from abandonware sites.
After replace those files, your copy works fine for me, too.
Since you said it works perfectly (on a real machine ?). Can you redump this game again (in both index and splice mode) ?
Thank you very much.[/quote]

I will never compare any original game with a cracked copy. Just about the Prehistorik 2 case, The existing PC crack is faulty !

The crack you're talking about has palette problems (and whatnot), the protection has not been correctly removed.....

If you don't know it, now you know :mrgreen: !

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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:25 pm

First of all, I am not here to argue with you. Just express what I see.
I didn't say your disk is modified.
But an unmodified disk not equal to an "authentic" copy.
I know some disloyally software corporation(s) buy Trace Moutain Duplication machine to make pirate copy of games/apps.
I can show you a KF dump to prove my words.
This is disk#1 of A-10 Tank killer for IBM-PC : https://mega.nz/#!Cp5VAZrJ!zEI62OJZCZho ... vYVjpoA1rs
Totally in green color, right ? But it is a pirate copy.
Why ? Because it's label, manual, box and etc., all are not original.

On the other hand, totally in orange color not always mean illegal copy.
Please refer to this thread : https://winworldpc.com/winboards/viewto ... =36&t=8712

About Prehistorik 2, I installed your dump (untouched) with PCE and got display issue like this :
pce0001.png

You can try the PCE emualtor with this game by yourself (password is your ID) :
https://mega.nz/#!G8QkRYyY!6uuio-Bb174B ... BZBmfrFM6Q
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Re: News games checked.

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:38 pm

coolhaken wrote:First of all, I am not here to argue with you. Just express what I see.
I didn't say your disk is modified.
But an unmodified disk not equal to an "authentic" copy.


My original is actually the official retail US release, as sold by Medalist for Microprose USA. It was not a reconditioned box, but a shop stock left over.

I know some disloyally software corporation(s) buy Trace Moutain Duplication machine to make pirate copy of games/apps.


Are you saying microprose USA was disloyal ? :roll:

I can show you a KF dump to prove my words.
This is disk#1 of A-10 Tank killer for IBM-PC : https://mega.nz/#!Cp5VAZrJ!zEI62OJZCZho ... vYVjpoA1rs
Totally in green color, right ? But it is a pirate copy.


Why ? Because it's label, manual, box and etc., all are not original.


my version is this one : http://www.ebay.com/itm/DR-DOOM-s-REVEN ... 2337851606

But it shows IBM PC 3,5" instead of the microprose label. It has the medalist sticker at the back.

On the other hand, totally in orange color not always mean illegal copy.
Please refer to this thread : https://winworldpc.com/winboards/viewto ... =36&t=8712

About Prehistorik 2, I installed your dump (untouched) with PCE and got display issue like this :
pce0001.png
You can try the PCE emualtor with this game by yourself (password is your ID) :
https://mega.nz/#!G8QkRYyY!6uuio-Bb174B ... BZBmfrFM6Q


Strange, i did a redump with my kryoflux board yesterday, everything went fine, but Disk 2 is modified on 3 tracks.
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Re: News games checked.

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:59 pm

I have joined Prehistorik 2 in PSI disk format. Try it, it should be better.
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Re: News games checked.

Postby ijor » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:12 pm

coolhaken wrote:First of all, I am not here to argue with you. Just express what I see.
I didn't say your disk is modified. But an unmodified disk not equal to an "authentic" copy.


Then please tell us what exactly you "see" that make you come to the conclusion that the image is a cracked copy.

Do you see some "cracked by" message or title screen? You don't see any disk copy protection? You see traces of some protection code that was disabled? Or something else?

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Re: News games checked.

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:22 pm

ijor wrote:
coolhaken wrote:First of all, I am not here to argue with you. Just express what I see.
I didn't say your disk is modified. But an unmodified disk not equal to an "authentic" copy.


Then please tell us what exactly you "see" that make you come to the conclusion that the image is a cracked copy.

Do you see some "cracked by" message or title screen? You don't see any disk copy protection? You see traces of some protection code that was disabled? Or something else?


I confirm the protection doesn"t work, whatever you type is passing. But my copy was a sealed shop copy, i have unblistered it myself, and the box contains all the official documents, manual, the comic, the microprose/medalist paper warranty, and so on.

And the disk is not modified. I guess that they removed the protection before duplicating the disk. It has to be noted that the blister was a bit yellowed too when i opened it, so it was not a reblistered game.
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Re: News games checked.

Postby ijor » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:28 pm

coolhaken wrote:I know some disloyally software corporation(s) buy Trace Moutain Duplication machine to make pirate copy of games/apps.
I can show you a KF dump to prove my words...


Do you actually know that some pirates acquired a Trace duplicator? Or it's just a speculation based on an unmodified image from what seems to be a pirated disk?

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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:37 pm

This game (Doctor Doom's Revenge) will ask some questions at the beginning like this :
boot_000.png

It uses manual copy protection.
To play an un-cracked version of this game. Player should select the right answer twice.
If you select the wrong answer, it will jump back to DOS soon.

The uploaded SCP dump can be converted to plain .IMG diskimages which work with DOSBox.
But no matter what answer you select, it always says "Right". So I think that version is pre-cracked.

I have the un-cracked version but my disk is modified by the reseller (add some files to make it work with Hercules mode).
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Last edited by coolhaken on Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:46 pm

ijor wrote:Do you actually know that some pirates acquired a Trace duplicator? Or it's just a speculation based on an unmodified image from what seems to be a pirated disk?


I actually know three software corporation(s), but I will not tell you their name. Because they are still alive.
And they made pirate copys about 20 years ago. Not now. All should gone with the wind.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby dlfrsilver » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:47 pm

coolhaken wrote:
ijor wrote:Do you actually know that some pirates acquired a Trace duplicator? Or it's just a speculation based on an unmodified image from what seems to be a pirated disk?


I actually know three software corporation(s), but I will not tell you their name. Because they are still alive.
And they made pirate copys about 20 years ago. Not now. All should gone with the wind.


have you tested Prehistorik 2 new PSI images with PCE emulator ?
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Re: News games checked.

Postby JimDrew » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:39 am

There is at least one eBay seller offering a ton of what appears to be original Amiga disks that are copies created on a Mountain Computing (TRACE) machine, with the labels done in silkscreen - even though many of the games never had silkscreen labels - they had printed paper labels.
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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:12 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:have you tested Prehistorik 2 new PSI images with PCE emulator ?


I tried them. There is still the same display issue.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby ijor » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:27 pm

coolhaken wrote:The uploaded SCP dump can be converted to plain .IMG diskimages which work with DOSBox.
But no matter what answer you select, it always says "Right". So I think that version is pre-cracked.
... I have the un-cracked version...


I see. It is indeed very suspicious. There are some known cases that the protection was removed by the publisher for some reason. But this sound extremely unlikely because it would be very unprofessional to release the game in that condition. You can never be 100% sure, especially if the disk looks unmodified (didn't check myself). Yes, I agree that just by seeming unmodified is not enough to conclude it's authentic. But it makes you a bit uncertain.

ijor wrote:Do you actually know that some pirates acquired a Trace duplicator?


I actually know three software corporation(s), but I will not tell you their name. Because they are still alive.
And they made pirate copys about 20 years ago. Not now. All should gone with the wind.


That's interesting but very hard to make sense. Why they would use the most expensive duplicator unless they reproduced the original copy protection (which is not easy without the original scripts)? At the time nobody would make the kind of analysis we run today. If they wanted to sell cracks, then they wouldn't need a Trace machine.

And why to replicate the original copy protection if then the packaging is cheap and obviously not original as in the case you commented earlier?

Were they selling replicas that people bought as if they were originals?

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Re: News games checked.

Postby ijor » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:28 pm

JimDrew wrote:There is at least one eBay seller offering a ton of what appears to be original Amiga disks that are copies created on a Mountain Computing (TRACE) machine ...


How do you know they were created on a Trace duplicator and not on some other hardware?

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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:39 pm

ijor wrote:That's interesting but very hard to make sense. Why they would use the most expensive duplicator unless they reproduced the original copy protection (which is not easy without the original scripts)? At the time nobody would make the kind of analysis we run today. If they wanted to sell cracks, then they wouldn't need a Trace machine.

And why to replicate the original copy protection if then the packaging is cheap and obviously not original as in the case you commented earlier?

Were they selling replicas that people bought as if they were originals?


It is easy to perceive the reason.
They developed and sold their own games/apps, so that machine is needed for them.
In addition, they are also agents of games/apps developed by other corporations.
They should paid more money to other corporations if they sold more games/apps.
In order to reduce spending, they started selling pirated copies.
Why to replicate the original copy protection ? There are two reasons:
1. They do not want people to think they are selling pirated copies.
(Most people can't tell a software is original or not even the packaging is cheap in that age of no widespread Internet)
2. They do not want players or other companies to easily duplicate their copies, that will affect their income.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby dlfrsilver » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:46 pm

coolhaken wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:have you tested Prehistorik 2 new PSI images with PCE emulator ?


I tried them. There is still the same display issue.


Then that's a copy protection support problem. When i install the 2 disks on my old 286 with VGA adaptator, the game works correctly.

PCE surely has a problem with the "Titus Megaprot 247 - Hackers are women" protection track. i have seen what happens with prehistorik 2. It doesn't look like that game files are in bad shape, but that instead the copy protection fails, making the game fails.

My original is fully functional. So i guess your only possibility is to ask to the emu author to support better the protection.
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Re: News games checked.

Postby JimDrew » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:38 am

ijor wrote:
JimDrew wrote:There is at least one eBay seller offering a ton of what appears to be original Amiga disks that are copies created on a Mountain Computing (TRACE) machine ...


How do you know they were created on a Trace duplicator and not on some other hardware?


Because they told me what machine they were using when I questioned why the labels were wrong.
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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:11 am

dlfrsilver wrote:Then that's a copy protection support problem. When i install the 2 disks on my old 286 with VGA adaptator, the game works correctly.

PCE surely has a problem with the "Titus Megaprot 247 - Hackers are women" protection track. i have seen what happens with prehistorik 2. It doesn't look like that game files are in bad shape, but that instead the copy protection fails, making the game fails.

My original is fully functional. So i guess your only possibility is to ask to the emu author to support better the protection.


Thanks for the information.
Maybe you are right.
I will ask PCE's author later.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:46 am

I seen plenty of later releases without copy protections, especially in case of compilations. And there were some obvious cracks, crackers involved. Of course without brags and greetings. For instance Escape From The Planet of Robot Monsters in compilation The Winning Team, Domark . Everything typical was there: patched copy protection check code, packing - later was especially useful for compilations.
I had too some German release of Civilization with disk labels done with some dot-matrix printer, where publisher is noted too. No copy protection present, but some of such releases had it.
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Re: News games checked.

Postby ijor » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:07 pm

Re: Pirate copies made with a Trace Duplicator.

coolhaken wrote:It is easy to perceive the reason.
They developed and sold their own games/apps, so that machine is needed for them.
In addition, they are also agents of games/apps developed by other corporations.
They should paid more money to other corporations if they sold more games/apps.
In order to reduce spending, they started selling pirated copies.


May be. That's conceivable, possible, but honestly, doesn't sound very likely.

In first place neither developers neither publishers used to perform the duplication themselves. And while I agree that some users (even most if you want) might not be able to realize they were illegal copies because of the packaging, some probably did. And obviously that retailers would note the difference, so they have to restrict sales to mail order, and risk that some user would find out and report them?

Regardless, if that was the scenario that they just kept some copies to themselves, then the image it is still authentic. Say they duplicated 2,000 copies. From that 1,000 were fully legal and they paid to the original developer, but the other half they illegally sold for themselves. The copy is pirate from a legal point of view, but from our purposes, an image is still fully authentic.

Also note that this doesn't match the case of dlfrsilver's "Doctor Doom's Revenge". Which seems to be cracked and with original packaging. Yes, there are conceivable explanations to this as well ...

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Re: News games checked.

Postby coolhaken » Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:44 pm

Sorry, I have not written enough detail.
They only paid for few legal copies and I guess they never sold them.
Instead, they modified the original (crack, add their own mark, add batch files ...)
then duplicated and sold the modified versions.
They also made their box, printed their simplified version of manual, translate language ...
Those versions usually sold overseas, not in USA. People there can't easily buy original games/apps.

What I said is the case of the KF dump I uploaded. It contains a CGA simulation program for Hercules
and a modified batch file which are not in the original version.
The purpose is to prove "an unmodified disk not equal to an authentic copy".
I don't know what happened on dlfrsilver's version.

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Re: News games checked.

Postby ijor » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:31 pm

coolhaken wrote:The purpose is to prove "an unmodified disk not equal to an authentic copy".


I definitely agree with that.

You know, it is not much different that authenticating such things as paintings, coins or stamps. A topic which I have some knowledge and relation. Experts on those use to say that you can never be 100% sure. Because simple you can't go back in time and follow the history of the piece you are trying to authenticate. There are just different levels of certainty.


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