Page 1 of 4

KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:51 am
by Tronic
Hi all,

I have tried to image and write my copy of Kick off 2 + World Cup 90 using Kryoflux with no success.

I've used different drives, different disks, different computers but cannot get a copy of Kick Off 2 + World Cup 90 to duplicate.

Can anyone help? If anyone has a working image I can try, that would be good. I am also worried as to why this doesn't work too as I image all disks I get for preservation and for the community.

Thanks :)

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:08 pm
by ijor
Where is the (non working) image? It doesn't duplicate but it works under emulation? Or doesn't work at all?

And sorry for a silly question ... but you verified that the original disk works? Didn't you?

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:01 pm
by Tronic
Hi - thanks for answering.

Yes, the original disk works. I have converted the RAW to STX in Aufit and loaded into Steem SSE 3.8.2 and the disk image DOES work.

However, when I write back to another disk (I have tried 4 disks - one being a disk that has not been formatted before), the game bombed out.

You can see the disk image here:-

http://www.johncove.co.uk/clients/KickO ... dCup90.zip

Thanks! :)

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:08 pm
by Tronic
I've just written the image back to disk again and same error - reads about 3 tracks then I get the error, "Master file not present or damaged ERROR"...

Weird...

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:18 pm
by Tronic
I've written back the disk that doesn't load in my Atari ST to a RAW image, converted to STX and loaded in Steem SSE 3.8.2 again....

The game doesn't load with the same error...

So, something is going wrong in the writing of the working RAW image to floppy disk.... I have just restored another game (Pirates!) and it works fine, so not quite sure what the problem is here.

2016-11-29_13h17_28.jpg

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:32 pm
by kodak80
I get the same error when I dump the image back to disk as well.

It should be noted that the Kryoflux was originally designed for preservation and writing back is not guaranteed for all disk images. You could try reporting this issue on the Kryoflux forum and see if they can resolve it.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:46 pm
by ijor
Tronic wrote:I've written back the disk that doesn't load in my Atari ST to a RAW image, converted to STX and loaded in Steem SSE 3.8.2 again....
The game doesn't load with the same error...


I will look at the original image later today. It will help if you can post that non-working image (made from the non working disk) as well.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:21 pm
by dlfrsilver
Tronic wrote:Hi - thanks for answering.

Yes, the original disk works. I have converted the RAW to STX in Aufit and loaded into Steem SSE 3.8.2 and the disk image DOES work.

However, when I write back to another disk (I have tried 4 disks - one being a disk that has not been formatted before), the game bombed out.

You can see the disk image here:-

http://www.johncove.co.uk/clients/KickO ... dCup90.zip

Thanks! :)


Tronic, i'll check your dumps :)

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:22 pm
by dlfrsilver
kodak80 wrote:I get the same error when I dump the image back to disk as well.

It should be noted that the Kryoflux was originally designed for preservation and writing back is not guaranteed for all disk images. You could try reporting this issue on the Kryoflux forum and see if they can resolve it.


The writing back is garanteed for any disk images processed in IPF. Sometimes the dumps can be dirty, and this can lead to errors, errors making the written back disk failing.

EDIT : Ok, now i know why it fails ! All tracks in side 1 of the disk from track 44 to 79 are reported as noise ! This means something went wrong !

I'll work out now your KFraw dump.

EDIT2 : the KFraw dump seems to be bad (i need a dump from another disk) for the very same reason. Tracks 44 to 79 on side 1 are reported as noise. Your disk is either knackered or there is mould on it.

This game on Atari ST is using the "copylock Anco" from tracks 2 to 6 side 0.

EDIT3 : other than that, your disk is unmodified Tronic, and the temporary IPF i made works perfectly with steem 3.8.2

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:21 pm
by ijor
Tronic wrote:Yes, the original disk works. I have converted the RAW to STX in Aufit and loaded into Steem SSE 3.8.2 and the disk image DOES work.
However, when I write back to another disk (I have tried 4 disks - one being a disk that has not been formatted before), the game bombed out.


This title has two issues that the Kryoflux software might not be able to handle at the RAW level. The copy protected tracks are not aligned with the index pulse, and then it has data under the index. And it has the so called NFA (no flux area), AKA strongbits. Probably the Kryoflux can write back the title after some preprocessing, not directly from the RAW dumps.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:24 pm
by ijor
dlfrsilver wrote:EDIT : Ok, now i know why it fails ! All tracks in side 1 of the disk from track 44 to 79 are reported as noise ! This means something went wrong !
...
Your disk is either knackered or there is mould on it.
...
EDIT3 : other than that, your disk is unmodified Tronic, and the temporary IPF i made works perfectly with steem 3.8.2


Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself. If something went bad and the dump is wrong, how it could work perfectly? Just because some tracks are unformatted doesn't necessarily mean the disk is damaged. They might be unused.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:39 pm
by dlfrsilver
This title has two issues that the Kryoflux software might not be able to handle at the RAW level.


This title has no problem. It's protected with 4 copylock tracks specific to Anco. This is your usual copylock protection, so nothing to worry about.

The copy protected tracks are not aligned with the index pulse, and then it has data under the index. And it has the so called NFA (no flux area), AKA strongbits. Probably the Kryoflux can write back the title after some preprocessing, not directly from the RAW dumps.


Well, let me try to write back on disk the temporary IPF i did from the dump, and i'll tell you if it works.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:48 pm
by dlfrsilver
Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself. If something went bad and the dump is wrong, how it could work perfectly? Just because some tracks are unformatted doesn't necessarily mean the disk is damaged. They might be unused.


Hello Ijor :) It's not contradicting. You can have all the good part of a disk unmodified and perfectly clean while having a part completely bad or incorrect.

For this very reason, i need a dump for somebody else (Kodak80, if you can upload on our share space your dump, i will then say if the disk is ok or not).

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:01 pm
by dlfrsilver
OK : i have tested the temporary IPF, it bombs (4) on my 520 STE 4mb, but it works perfectly on my 1040STF. The kryoflux board wrote correctly the protection.

2016-11-29 16.55.34.jpg

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:07 pm
by dlfrsilver
ijor wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:EDIT : Ok, now i know why it fails ! All tracks in side 1 of the disk from track 44 to 79 are reported as noise ! This means something went wrong !
...
Your disk is either knackered or there is mould on it.
...
EDIT3 : other than that, your disk is unmodified Tronic, and the temporary IPF i made works perfectly with steem 3.8.2


Sorry, but you are contradicting yourself. If something went bad and the dump is wrong, how it could work perfectly? Just because some tracks are unformatted doesn't necessarily mean the disk is damaged. They might be unused.


Look at the CTA picture : when i see this kind of thing, it's most of the time due to a disk error. But i can be wrong. In order to know if i am or not, i need another dump :)

KickOff2_analyze.jpg

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:19 pm
by ijor
dlfrsilver wrote:This title has no problem. It's protected with 4 copylock tracks specific to Anco. This is your usual copylock protection, so nothing to worry about.


I didn't say there is something to worry about. I say that, probably, the Kryoflux software can't write back that protection directly from the RAW dumps. That it needs to be pre processed to some other format, like an IPF image. You just confirm what I have said. Some might consider this a problem, some might not.

And btw, this is not your "usual" copylock protection. I know you call it Copylock, but I don't think it is copylock at all.

Hello Ijor :) It's not contradicting. You can have all the good part of a disk unmodified and perfectly clean while having a part completely bad or incorrect.
...
when i see this kind of thing, it's most of the time due to a disk error


Yes, but in this case, it is not that just one part is clean. You said yourself the disk works perfectly, this can't happen if a part is completely damaged.

And yes, most of the time something like that it would be because of a bad dump. But not always.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:22 pm
by Tronic
Sorry, what do you need from me dlfrsilver?

Can I just say, the original disk does work on my Atari hardware and in Steem. When I write back the disk to a new disk (I've tried about 10 disks now with no success) it bombs on my STE and my STFM with the error I show in the above Steem screen grab.

Below you can download the image that doesn't work when I write back the image to disk using Kryoflux:-

http://www.johncove.co.uk/clients/KickO ... D-DEAD.zip

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:27 pm
by dlfrsilver
I say that, probably, the Kryoflux software can't write back that protection directly from the RAW dumps.


You're right on this matter. Quite a number of games indeed can't be written back straight from RAW dumps without being descripted.

That it needs to be pre processed to some other format, like an IPF image. You just confirm what I have said.


It's on our website. Steve has added the ability to write directly the RAW dumps back on disks at the request of the users, but yes, using the master IPFs solve the problem, because the protection is written as intended like on the disk where the raw dump came.

And btw, this is not your "usual" copylock protection. I know you call it Copylock, but I don't think it is copylock at all.


You're perfectly wrong here. The anco titles use a custom copylock, different from the one used on the other publishers titles.

It is in fact a variant of the copylock short version spanned on 6 tracks.

Yes, but in this case, it is not that just one part is clean. You said yourself the disk works perfectly, this can't happen if a part is completely damaged.


Yes the disk loads, but there are no confirmation that the game doesn't load anything from track 44 to 79 side 1.

And yes, most of the time something like that it would be because of a bad dump. But not always.


;)

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:32 pm
by dlfrsilver
Tronic wrote:Sorry, what do you need from me dlfrsilver?


Nothing yet :) I need another dump of another disk of the same game to make a compare.

Can I just say, the original disk does work on my Atari hardware and in Steem. When I write back the disk to a new disk (I've tried about 10 disks now with no success) it bombs on my STE and my STFM with the error I show in the above Steem screen grab.


Basically, you can only write back on disk this game from the IPF. It uses a specific version of a copylock short called "copylock Anco".

Below you can download the image that doesn't work when I write back the image to disk using Kryoflux:-

http://www.johncove.co.uk/clients/KickO ... D-DEAD.zip


I don't need it, thank you :)

I sent you a PM. Once the compare is done, you'll possibly get (or not if bad) a private/temporary IPF.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:08 pm
by Brume
The game is single side (have several copies of it - all are single side).

Here is another dump if it can help to analyze the content:

https://mega.nz/#F!nYljAQAY!Qwck2iS2DDoC2CdDQ-1xLw

Kick Off 2 + World Cup 90.png

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:28 pm
by dlfrsilver
Brume wrote:The game is single side (have several copies of it - all are single side).

Here is another dump if it can help to analyze the content:

https://mega.nz/#F!nYljAQAY!Qwck2iS2DDoC2CdDQ-1xLw

Kick Off 2 + World Cup 90.png


thanks Brume, your dump is perfect, but it's also an alternate version, different from Tronic release.

Your version lacks the file "Title." sized 27575 bytes. Tronic's disk has this title screen.

So now i rely on Kodak80 own dump :)

Do you want the temporary IPF out of your disk ?

Tronic's disk :

Tronic's_Kickoff2+WC90_directory.jpg


Brume's disk :

Brume's KickOff2+WC90_directory.jpg

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:29 pm
by Tronic
I tried to write Bruno's image to disk too but it didn't work and gave me 3 bombs on load :(

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:30 pm
by dlfrsilver
Tronic wrote:I tried to write Bruno's image to disk too but it didn't work and gave me 3 bombs on load :(


That's perfectly normal, any title protected with a copylock should not work as it is straight from RAW dump.

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:31 pm
by Tronic
Oh really? :(

How can we get around this problem?

Re: KICK OFF 2 + WORLD CUP 90

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:45 pm
by dlfrsilver
Tronic wrote:Oh really? :(

How can we get around this problem?


i think the issue will be positive. In fact i wonder if side 1 on your version is not simply holding the title file data not present on brume's version.

Your version is double sided, and Brume's is only single sided.

EDIT : it seems this game exists in 3 differents releases. We have 2 of them right now.