Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Post all your Kryoflux related topics in here. From questions about the hardware through to disks you've managed to image up and, probably most importantly, write back without any problems :)

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Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Brume » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:18 am

Well, I'm just coming to acquire a Kryoflux. Had just the time to play with it while 5 minutes: it looks a great device :D

But I'm wondering which setup I need to use for imaging the following stuffs:

- non protected disks.Until now, I've always imaged disks with Fastcopy or MSA on the real hardware. Since i still have more than 2000 disks to image, it may be fast to use Kryoflux in the same time. I just need to produce .ST files (which will be converted into .MSA with MSA Converter, of course). Which is the best way to do that? MFM sector image?

- protected disks. I'd like to image my whole collection of original games. Also I can image The Union Demo as requested by npomarede on this thread. All I need to know is: which setup do I need to use? Once it's done, how can I validate an image-disk? Do I need to write it back on a floppy and test it on the real hardware (boring & long job, I may have more than 400 original games)?

Thanks in advance :)

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:04 am

Validation is something what is needed, and not only in case of copy-protected floppies. Especially now, when floppy disks are very old. I don't have Kryoflux, and don't know it's SW, but when you make ST images, SW should give informations about errors during imaging - RNF, CRC errors in first place.

In case of originals, only Kryoflux team can do validation of images, and only they can convert it to IPF format. That may take some time, longer time. I'm afraid that writing back to floppies and testing is only way, what user can do. And in some cases, shorter test is not enough, since copy protection may activate at some later stage.
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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:54 pm

You should be able to do preservation of all you floppies protected or non protected without problem.

However do not expect to be able to write backup or to be able to use the "raw" stream preservation files.
I have submitted about 100 floppies to SPS more than two years ago and I am still waiting to see ipf file :(
so yes you can preserve for posterity but not yet use the files ... :oops:

For usage you can read http://info-coach.fr/atari/hardware/dev ... yoflux.php or http://info-coach.fr/atari/software/pro ... yoflux.php
For dump use
dtc -fMyfile -i0 -i4 -v300

or use my bat file
AtariDump.rar
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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Hippy Dave » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:13 pm

Just by reading peoples comments on Kyroflux, my skeptical opinion has been declining from the beginning. By now they should have Kryflux2 just to be convincing in a marketing sense (or to reset my declining opinion). Kyroflux2 should give you independence from having to contact them for any reason, and allow you full functionality of the product. Save your old floppies, maybe someone will connect an ADC to a floppy drive to take magnetic pictures (and become famous).

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Brume » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:13 pm

Ok, thanks for your replies everyone :)
Of course, I'll have to preserve all my original disks with Kryoflux + pasti, I know that.

@DrCoolZic: at the moment, I'm trying to image non protected disks (mainly menus disks). I just want to produce .ST files. I've used kryoflux-ui.jar with MFM sector image settings. It works nice when the disk is 80/2/10 formatted. But as soon it's only 80/2/9, the image-disk produced is messy. I've tried to force the Sector Count to 9, but it doesn't produce better results. Do I need to change some other setting?

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:20 am

Brume wrote:@DrCoolZic: at the moment, I'm trying to image non protected disks (mainly menus disks). I just want to produce .ST files. I've used kryoflux-ui.jar with MFM sector image settings. It works nice when the disk is 80/2/10 formatted. But as soon it's only 80/2/9, the image-disk produced is messy. I've tried to force the Sector Count to 9, but it doesn't produce better results. Do I need to change some other setting?

Sorry but I do not have the answer. It is strange that the file are "messy" as st format is just the raw decoded bits?

I have a prototype somewhere that generate .st from stream file I can try to find it.
I am currently writing a new toolset that should be able to produce .st and .stx and eventually .ipf? but it wont be ready before few month
You can look at some output from the prototype here http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=749

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Brume » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:13 am

Impressive work, DrCoolZic! Good luck with your project, and let me know if you need me to image original disks and send them to you.

After reading most of the topics on Kryoflux' Forum, it looks like most of the Kryoflux community is interested in Amiga, C64 & PC stuffs.
But ST disks encounter no success. It's a shame, we have so many great stuffs to preserve.

Just a short question: how many Atarians have a Kryoflux?

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Dal » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:06 am

Hippy Dave wrote:Just by reading peoples comments on Kyroflux, my skeptical opinion has been declining from the beginning. By now they should have Kryflux2 just to be convincing in a marketing sense (or to reset my declining opinion). Kyroflux2 should give you independence from having to contact them for any reason, and allow you full functionality of the product. Save your old floppies, maybe someone will connect an ADC to a floppy drive to take magnetic pictures (and become famous).


You mean read the physical disk as if it was a tape? Now there's an interesting idea.
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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:01 pm

Brume wrote:Impressive work, DrCoolZic! Good luck with your project, and let me know if you need me to image original disks and send them to you.

After reading most of the topics on Kryoflux' Forum, it looks like most of the Kryoflux community is interested in Amiga, C64 & PC stuffs.
But ST disks encounter no success. It's a shame, we have so many great stuffs to preserve.

Just a short question: how many Atarians have a Kryoflux?

Yes I am interested if you can provide images of disks.
It would be nice to have a central point with the Stream files of preserved disk.
I have already done about 100 FD but with my new tool I have discovered that probably several of them are bad! I am investigating the reason. Might be that the disk are already "too old"

I am not sure there is a lot of Atarian that have KF board, but I am not sure.

The big problem is that currently you need to go the IPF route to use the stream outputs and it takes forever (really!) to get them.
This is why I hope to be able to convert to stx. I have been in contact with Ijor and I believe I know the stx format enough to generate files. But it will require sometime before I have a working prog.
By the way there another option: Jeff has added the support of Stream file in hxc2001. So you should be able to play directly from the stream. I did not had time to test it but he days that it works :)

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Hippy Dave » Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:09 pm

Dal wrote:
Hippy Dave wrote:... Save your old floppies, maybe someone will connect an ADC to a floppy drive to take magnetic pictures (and become famous).

You mean read the physical disk as if it was a tape? Now there's an interesting idea.

Yes.
Another thing that can be done (for those that would like to use a phase locked loop) is to lock on to the data bit rate being read so that the ADC can have a (over sampled) sample rate that may be synchronized to the data (cannot patent this one because if it is not patented already, the idea is hereby public domain).

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:13 pm

Hello Brume ...

I am progressing faster than anticipated with my stream tool :) and I should soon be ready to produce .st file from Stream files.

So I would be interested if you could publish somewhere the Stream files that are not converted to.st correctly
If you do so I should be able to look at them to see if they seems "ok" and eventually generate a .st file for test purpose :)
Let me know what you think.

For fun this is an example of analysis using Turrican game:
turrican.JPG

turrican-disk-layout.JPG
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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby darwinmac » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:45 pm

Since Hatari added IPF support to their development version, I am hoping someone who has a Kryoflux will upload IPF files to one of the FTP sites. Right now, the ST IPF selection is pretty slim.


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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:11 pm

darwinmac wrote:Since Hatari added IPF support to their development version, I am hoping someone who has a Kryoflux will upload IPF files to one of the FTP sites. Right now, the ST IPF selection is pretty slim.
Bob C

The problem is that only SPS produces IPF files and ... they seems to have other priorities. I have been waiting more than two years and I have not yet received any IPF from my submitted Stream files.
However having an FTP site for storing Stream files would be useful ;)

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby darwinmac » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:21 am

DrCoolZic wrote:
darwinmac wrote:Since Hatari added IPF support to their development version, I am hoping someone who has a Kryoflux will upload IPF files to one of the FTP sites. Right now, the ST IPF selection is pretty slim.
Bob C

The problem is that only SPS produce IPF files and ... they seems to have other priorities. I have been waiting more than two years and I have not yet received any IPF from my submitted Stream file.
However having an FTP site for storing Stream files would be useful ;)


My mistake. I thought anyone who owned a Kryoflux could produce an IPF file. I thought the IPF file was being thrown away because it was not seen as useful.


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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby jok » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:17 pm

I also have an Kryoflux. Really great device for easy converting "normal" disks and reading the protected ones. I also often used the plain writeback of ADF images (sadly the SPS software can only write back ADF and IPF -- reason below).

Like DrCoolZic I provided dozens of disk images (both ST and Amiga) to SPS, I twice got a message, but not a single IPF in one year. Also note they do only convert images which they do not have. That means, if you have a game you want to convert and they have it already, they will not supply you with an IPF.

In summary: IPF is a format most likely only valid on Amiga -- as these are the only disk images SPS seems to care about at all (even though they didn't converted mine).


@DrCoolZic: impressive tools. I should take a deeper look. If you require streams -- I can provide many (hundreds of disks, only working ones imaged -- as said both ST and Amiga).

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Brume » Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:04 am

DrCoolZic wrote:So I would be interested if you could publish somewhere the Stream files that are not converted to.st correctly
If you do so I should be able to look at them to see if they seems "ok" and eventually generate a .st file for test purpose :)
Let me know what you think.


No problem, I'll share the Stream files i've generated. Give me one or two days, I'm finishing a first batch and you'll get them ;)

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:58 am

The problem is where to put the Stream files :)
If some FTP where available I could also put Stream files for about 100 FD

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby Brume » Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:30 pm

I'll arrange something with a FTP server for everyone ;)

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby IFW » Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:04 pm

As for any support for KryoFlux itself, imaging etc, please post at the official KryoFlux forums - that's the only way to make sure that your post will be read by the right people, who can help.
forum.kryoflux.com

As for IPF files and preservation.
No, our priority at SPS is not ST *or* Amiga *or* any other platform - it is something much, much bigger.
Our current goal is to make it possible for *everyone* to work on *quality* preservation where integrity and authenticity checks are possible.
That is a lot of work and a lot of responsibility - we do take this very seriously, as having badly imaged disks out there that are thought to be preserved is worse than not having some of them at all. Once people think a title has been fully preserved, the disks will no longer be interesting enough to get hold of, and if later - possibly years later! - the images turn out to be bad, there will be no originals around to re-dump anymore.

So our tools that will be made available will ensure that users will get professional grade duplication and preservation facilities, including imaging, checking integrity, checking authenticity, writing to real media, verification and of course emulation.
As I said this takes a lot of work and a lot of time. It would be a lot of time even as a full time job, or in any way supported financially.
The fact is, we make this in our spare time, using our own money for the benefit of communities like the ST one.

What the community could do to support these efforts is to provide stream dumps of ST software and make this a reality.
Not just for ST, but plenty of other platforms as well.

For more details on what's happening, please read this thread:
http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=718

If you'd like to help, please do get in touch at:
http://www.softpres.org/contact

or register at the official KryoFlux forums and post there:
forum.kryoflux.com

Thank you.

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:52 pm

Sorry IFW, but I must say that you need to motivate people to buy Kryoflux, and give them immediately some results. People is selfish biologically, and some high ideals like preservation are not much interesting. If there is still no possibility to write images onto floppies, and no conversion to IPF format, it is just big disadvantage, and I'm sure that people will turn to SuperCard Pro, even if it would be technically inferior (about what I don't want to discuss at all).
Furthermore, as I already said on Kryoflux forum too - your policy about not sharing images is in fact against preservation self. You just lose free testers :D , to say it simple . I really don't care for big words 'professional' and similar. In many cases in history amateurs did better job. Remember first home computers, made in garage ?
Another bad policy is by me your "we do it all self" approach, contrary open approach by JimDrew.
Last thing what I care are those moaning about copyright infringement. As it is with many games done for ST so poorly, and even not tested well before publishing, they should be happy that someone even takes care about they 'creations', done mostly for making money.
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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby IFW » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:03 pm

SPS can't and won't share images with anyone except for:
- contributors
- institutes such as archives
- copyright holders, such as authors
We are not going to risk SPS over copyright debates, but honestly, most contributors DO share their files.

I am pretty sure all IPF files are available via IRC, just googling for them and any other way of sharing them.
For an end-user it's just a technicality who shares them, but for us, the difference between legal and illegal.

The other thing you mention does not have any sort of open approach - it is like Tom Sawyer getting his fence painted by other people.
Why?
Because that way you don't have to invest time or money -> maximum profit.
And if it does not work, you can always blame it one anyone else who worked on it.
Simple as that.

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby IFW » Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:08 pm

btw: just to make it clear.
You CAN write IPF images to disk, and you will be able to create IPF images yourself - with the tools we will be using ourselves.
As for copying disks, as is (blind copy): I'd interested in hearing whether this is something that the ST community specifically is interested in?
Maybe have a poll?

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Jan 06, 2014 6:51 pm

I think somewhere AtariZoll is right: why would people spend lot of time saving games and sending them to a black hole without any return other than satisfaction to participate...
Obviously the best solution is the scripting solution that will allow individuals to generate perfect IPF file but meanwhile ...

I am trying to come with some sort of compromise :)
People should continue to preserve their games by generating KF raw stream files (so this part is done for posterity) and in return be able to generate immediately files for their favorite emulators

For info Aufit alpha is available here viewtopic.php?f=102&t=25906

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby IFW » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:10 pm

Yes, that's why we are working on that :)
As for other uses for stream files... maybe we should just start a countdown, but then it wouldn't be a surprise what we plan next (very soon!), would it...? 8)

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Re: Best setup to image ST disks with Kryoflux?

Postby DrCoolZic » Mon Jan 06, 2014 7:54 pm

IFW wrote:Yes, that's why we are working on that :)
As for other uses for stream files... maybe we should just start a countdown, but then it wouldn't be a surprise what we plan next (very soon!), would it...? 8)

Exciting


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