Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

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Sturm
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Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Sturm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:56 pm


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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Zarchos » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:07 pm

It is a demo, man : stop this childish behaviour. That has nothing to do with a game.

I see you are French, I am French too, and you are a disgrace.
Looks like an Amiga fanboy retard's remark.
It is not Gamopat, here, it is the atari-forum.

It is a stunning work for the Amstrad (and that's for the PLUS, from 1990 ; quite appalling considering it was launched 5 years after the ST), but the resolution is just awful, and for the trees, well, there is one once in a while, clearly.

Certainly the programmers are ace programmers, that is obvious with such a limited and crappy machine.
Atari 1040 STE+SATAN, 520ST, 800xl, xegs, Amiga 500, 2000 with 68020, Archimedes, RISC PCs + Iyonix, Omega, BBC B, Atom, Electron, ZX 81, Spectrum 48/128/+2/+3, Speccy2010, Russian clones, Sam Coupe, V6Z80P, QL with accelerators, Enterprise 128, Einstein inc 256, Oric Atmos, MSX 1, 2, Thomson MO5, Amstrads inc CPC+, C 16, 64, 128, VG5000, Apple IIGS and more ! Yes I want to create a museum when I retire.

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Sturm » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:37 pm

Wow wow wow relax dude ! No need to be so disrespectul and rude. I think you miss my point.
I'm not an Amstrad nor an Amiga fanboy at all (i have both a Falcon and a 1200 and had a ST and later an Amiga back in the day), and i use my Atari way more today.
I stumbled upon that video the other day, and i was quite impressed, by the animation, the graphics and the sound on this 8 bit machine, way smoother than the ST version, but at a lower resolution.
Still, I think this could be a better and more enjoyable game than the one we have.
I just wanted to know why this "game" can be so fast on a 8 bit 4mhz machine, whereas we have that sluggish version on our machines.
Looking a the cpc plus specs, it seems they added support for hardware sprites and scrolling; would this combo perform better than a plain 68000? Talking about the STF here, not the STE.

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby grobda » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:57 pm

on bbc micro too (little bit of extra hardware ;) ); https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYb7XjnMsaA

SOTB might look pretty but its a crap game, I think the Atari lynx has the most playable version (and no minute wait to read the same message whenever you change zones) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL2iXkT9yVY

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Sturm » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:30 pm

Of course, I did not say it was a good game, it just has good music and graphics. The rest is crappy.
Still, this has always been a sort of "standard meter" for the amigans and i would be glad to see a good conversion for the STE or an enhanced version for the Falcon.

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby joefish » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:51 pm

Byte me:

https://demozoo.org/productions/156249/

:lol:

That's still pretty impressive though, even with the extra chips added to the Amstrad. The lo-rez trees suggest to me massively expanded sprites, and I don't have the big red dragon and other stuff in mine. Though that's really just the tree layer re-purposed for a different job, and even the Amiga version re-loads big graphics like that along the way.

Claiming it's just a demo is hardly a detriment though; the original game was little more than a demo. What would kill it is as a viable game are things that affect some of the ST demos, like colour switches that would prevent the player sprite from jumping up above their current level, but that's probably not an issue here.

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Zarchos » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:56 pm

joefish wrote:Byte me:

https://demozoo.org/productions/156249/

:lol:

That's still pretty impressive though, even with the extra chips added to the Amstrad. The lo-rez trees suggest to me massively expanded sprites, and I don't have the big red dragon and other stuff in mine. Though that's really just the tree layer re-purposed for a different job, and even the Amiga version re-loads big graphics like that along the way.

Claiming it's just a demo is hardly a detriment though; the original game was little more than a demo. What would kill it is as a viable game are things that affect some of the ST demos, like colour switches that would prevent the player sprite from jumping up above their current level, but that's probably not an issue here.


I'd like to know if there is at least a keyboard handler, if there are some cycles left per frames to do proper collision detections and so on.
Can the main character jump or constraints prevent that ?
Demos are sthing, a game can be something completely different.
If I read correctly, the sound is a long file played, and in no way has the structure of a MOD or whatever.
So ok it works, but needs a huge amount of memory.(386 kbytes. Unrealistic for a full game with all the other levels and tunes).

Please note : in no way I want to undermine the fantastic work by the coders (guys, truely : hatts off to you !), I simply want to express the idea that the title of this thread is just plain stupid, despising the Atari ST.
Too many people see demos and say 'It proves the machine could have had this in a game'.
No.
No way.

Same thing when I read some people saying the Amiga could have some fast 3D games, because they have gazed at what they think is true 3D in demos, when everything in these demos in fact works like for example the Bad Apple demos : a 'mere' player reading compressed x, length of segments to plot, for each horizontal segment to plot in a frame, for each frame to display.
Nice trick, but in no way a proof the machine can do real 3D (as the Archimedes can do. And then I read people saying : it is 50 fps on the Amiga, and 17 on the Archie, so the Archie is lame. What a joke when the Archie does TRUE realtime full 3D calculations and 2D plotting, and in 256 colours).
Atari 1040 STE+SATAN, 520ST, 800xl, xegs, Amiga 500, 2000 with 68020, Archimedes, RISC PCs + Iyonix, Omega, BBC B, Atom, Electron, ZX 81, Spectrum 48/128/+2/+3, Speccy2010, Russian clones, Sam Coupe, V6Z80P, QL with accelerators, Enterprise 128, Einstein inc 256, Oric Atmos, MSX 1, 2, Thomson MO5, Amstrads inc CPC+, C 16, 64, 128, VG5000, Apple IIGS and more ! Yes I want to create a museum when I retire.

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Zarchos » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:09 pm

grobda wrote:on bbc micro too (little bit of extra hardware ;) ); https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYb7XjnMsaA

SOTB might look pretty but its a crap game, I think the Atari lynx has the most playable version (and no minute wait to read the same message whenever you change zones) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL2iXkT9yVY



X68000 version looks great (graphics) and at least there are more than 5 'phases' to the animation.
On the Amiga, and also in this CPC+ demo, the beast looks like a crippled animal with wooden legs and iron knees. :|
Atari 1040 STE+SATAN, 520ST, 800xl, xegs, Amiga 500, 2000 with 68020, Archimedes, RISC PCs + Iyonix, Omega, BBC B, Atom, Electron, ZX 81, Spectrum 48/128/+2/+3, Speccy2010, Russian clones, Sam Coupe, V6Z80P, QL with accelerators, Enterprise 128, Einstein inc 256, Oric Atmos, MSX 1, 2, Thomson MO5, Amstrads inc CPC+, C 16, 64, 128, VG5000, Apple IIGS and more ! Yes I want to create a museum when I retire.

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby lostdragon » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:43 pm

It shouldn't really matter that this is an Atari Forum.

Shadow Of The Beast was written as a technical showcase for the Amiga hardware and even it's creators themselves openly admit there wasn't much of a game in there.

Converting it to the ST was always going to result in comprises being made, just as there were when converting to the ZX Spectrum, C64 and Amstrad CPC.

As long as good use was made of the host hardware why worry ?.

Improvements were made to the 8 bit Master System version to improve playability.

CPC, ZX Spectrum and C64 versions all impressed from what I've seen of them.

Lynx version is superb..but missing the flying sections..and not ideally suited to handheld play..no save system.

Mega Drive version was simply dire.

I would of loved to of seen the Atari Panther version had it progressed far enough for a rolling demo.

PC Engine CD version among the most technically amazing versions.

But it really isn't enough of a game to worry about like that.. ;-)

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Hazzardus » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:49 pm

grobda wrote:SOTB might look pretty but its a crap game, I think the Atari lynx has the most playable version (and no minute wait to read the same message whenever you change zones) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL2iXkT9yVY


I really enjoyed the Lynx version, the graphics looked really impressive too on the original Lynx 1 screen, not so much on emulators :D

I used to like how the enemies didn't just drop, they squashed thanks to the lynx's fairly simple hardware helped scaling.

Zarchos wrote: X68000 version looks great (graphics) and at least there are more than 5 'phases' to the animation.
On the Amiga, and also in this CPC+ demo, the beast looks like a crippled animal with wooden legs and iron knees. :|


There was never a version for the X68000, I believe you are mistaking the FM Towns for the X68000.

Totally different architecture and totally different companies. Sharp Vs Fujitsu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCjK5yCd_8s

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Cyprian » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:57 pm


unfortunately this demo is not for CPC but for Amstrad console GX4000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_GX4000:

Code: Select all

ASIC: Support for sprites, soft scrolling, programmable interrupts, DMA Sound[13]
Colour[2]
Depth: 12-bit RGB
Colours available: 4096
Maximum colours onscreen: 32 (16 for background, 15 for sprites, 1 for border)
Maximum onscreen colour counts can be increased in all Modes through the use of interrupts.
Sprites [13]
Number: 16 high resolution sprites per line
Sizes: 16x16 (each sprite can be magnified 2x or 4x in X and Y)
Colours: Each sprite can use up to 15 colours



http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=72271#c810417

Code: Select all

This is a demo - not a POC for a game. A game with such quality (on sound and parallax scrollings) is not possible.

Part of the demo is cheating.
Think about it: a small one-screen intro... on a 512KB cardridge!?
As the best example, all played notes from the original MOD were generated and saved to rom: 368KB!
More than 1/3 of cputime during the show is spent by copying samples from rom to ram to be played.
Others cheats are: 52KB (out of 64KB) ram dedicated to screen (incl. 16KB just for the small wall scroll at bottom),
generated code in rom for balloons and moon, generated code for delta-packing animations in sprite,...
512KB were full quickly!

Part of the demo is not cheating.
From the nfo: promote Amstrad GX4000 as one of the most powerful 8bit platforms.
That's it: GX4000 is just too powerful! ;)
There's no cheat there, I'm using standard features from the hardware:
* dma-AY on 3 channels
* 4096 colors - palette: 16 for background + 15 for sprites
* colorful sprites - which are zoom-able (watch those trees)
* 1-pixel H/V scroll
* splitscreens & programmable scanline interruptions
From the nfo again: that's an easy job to show that GX4000 is not the crap most of people were lauhging at.
Jaugar / TT030 / Mega STe / 800 XL / 1040 STe / Falcon030 / 65 XE / 520 STm / SM124 / SC1435
SDrive / PAK68/3 / CosmosEx / SatanDisk / UltraSatan / USB Floppy Drive Emulator / Eiffel / SIO2PC / Crazy Dots / PAM Net
Hatari / Aranym / Steem / Saint
http://260ste.appspot.com/

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Hazzardus » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:08 pm

Cyprian wrote:

unfortunately this demo is not for CPC but for Amstrad console GX4000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_GX4000:



Oh god, I bought one of these with Burning Rubber, Pang and Robocop 2 from Macro in 1992 for £9.99 (not including VAT) :lol:

The pads don't work on ST without opening them up as far as I remember (no fire button) , unlike the Sega Master System pads which were great for ST platformers.

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Re: Sotb better on Amstrad CPC + than on ST

Postby Zarchos » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:20 pm

The CPC+ is fully compatable with GX4000 games, it has the cartridge port and the guts are those of the GX4000.
And yes sorry for the mistake X68000<->FM TOWNS.

And yes, no surprise to showcase all this there is the usage of generated code ...
The really smart thing to do is to have only the generator included in your code (this way you don't need huge amount of mass storage and / or RAM), and not the generated code+data for the sprites, and deal with the process of creating the generated code 'on demand' ...
But, with a slow Z80 at 4 Mhz this is just unthinkable.
And having this kind of just in time generator involves a lot of difficulties, among them : using what's left free for that per frame, over several frames, claiming memory, releasing it, rearraning the memory to get contiguous memory for the next generations.(All this 'transparently' in order not to drop the framerate).
Yes I know it, since I did it on the Archie.
It even works if the screen display is hardwarely shifted per scanline (Archie only uses chunky modes), and still the sprites are plotted 'normal'.
Partially shown on my YT channel, for people who might be interested to see what an 8 Mhz Archie can do with sprites plotting (and in 256 colours).
Not quite finished yet (still further optimising the 'unplotting' part).
Was very fun to code with list of pointers to lists of indexed pointers to structures including again various descriptors themselves including pointers to structures.
100% ARM assembly of course.
The fact all ARM instructions take 4 bytes is a pure blessing for generating ARM code just in time.
Atari 1040 STE+SATAN, 520ST, 800xl, xegs, Amiga 500, 2000 with 68020, Archimedes, RISC PCs + Iyonix, Omega, BBC B, Atom, Electron, ZX 81, Spectrum 48/128/+2/+3, Speccy2010, Russian clones, Sam Coupe, V6Z80P, QL with accelerators, Enterprise 128, Einstein inc 256, Oric Atmos, MSX 1, 2, Thomson MO5, Amstrads inc CPC+, C 16, 64, 128, VG5000, Apple IIGS and more ! Yes I want to create a museum when I retire.


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