FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby Mathias » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:45 pm

wongck wrote: If this is true then I am sorry to burst your bubble about having no shell in your system.

If that is true, it wouold be ok, as jfl, m0n0s and shoggoths critics would not apply. :mrgreen:
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby wongck » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:49 pm

Mathias wrote:Perhaps if you have a look you can understand why it is soo great for me! ;)


Well. this is not magic actually.
I have written about this on my webpage like 3 year ago,
and mentioned it a couple of post above.
Just get the package and untar it and you get a Unix-like environment.

There is nothing to edit or configure for this to happen.
The thing I said was that the package was in TAR so you need to know the command line for TAR.

But one can always just change the archive package type, to say LZH that we are all familiar with.
Then it will also work.... just un-LZH it, much like how any other LZH that we are familiar with.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby wongck » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:58 pm

Mathias wrote:
wongck wrote: If this is true then I am sorry to burst your bubble about having no shell in your system.

If that is true, it wouold be ok, as jfl, m0n0s and shoggoths critics would not apply. :mrgreen:


Well. someone still need to check.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby Mathias » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:59 pm

wongck wrote:
Mathias wrote:
wongck wrote: Without the Unix-like environment, there will not be easy networking, large disk space and what ever....

Thats not true! The FireBee setup contains both without any Unix stuff. Thats exactly what I am talking about. Many people postulate it is necessary while it is not!
(except the possibility you consider some .ttps, some config files and a handful folders as "Unix-like environment"?)


Wow... amazing, so the patched TOS can access the 40 GB standard size hard disk ?
Thanks for informing me, I did not know that.

They are stolen from Unix world.
Why are you talking about TOS now? We are talking about the FireBee FreeMiNT setup, that comes without Unix-like environment.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby jfl » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:03 pm

wongck wrote:No I am not talking about the fall back of MInt when it cannot find Xaaes or whatever... if I count that, then you have 2 shells on your system.

You are absolutely right, of course. The Bash shell is an integral part of the FreeMiNT setup of the FireBee, along with a couple of shell scripts and other Unix programs needed to set up networking.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby wongck » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:08 pm

Mathias wrote:Why are you talking about TOS now? We are talking about the FireBee FreeMiNT setup, that comes without Unix-like environment.


Got to get that 15 year old memory of mine out of my head.
MINT disk-access capabilities comes from TOS, at least until 1.15 version (I think) after which it replaced the TOS disk-access routines with it's own TOSFS routine to access the disk.
TOS is always behind MINT somehow some where.... where else I do not know.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby jfl » Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:04 pm

wongck wrote:Wow... amazing, so the patched TOS can access the 40 GB standard size hard disk ?

I'm not sure if you were being facetious but in case you weren't FireTOS can't access large partitions by itself. MiNT can.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:52 pm

wongck wrote:When I started using MINT 15 or more years ago, there was no Unix-like extension for it and it works great multitasking on the STFM.


When I started using MiNT in 1995 the TAF "Internet Kit" and KGMD was available and fairly widely used. KGMD was the first "real" unix-like setup for MiNT back then. I used for years, from 1996 (IIRC) to around 2003 on my Falcon/AB. I even wrote a small guide on how to adapt it to N.AES.

wongck wrote:Without the Unix-like environment, there will not be easy networking, large disk space and what ever... ( sure you can use STING for networking like what patched TOS does )


Not correct. Networking doesn't require any "unix"-environment at all except the presence of the file u:\etc\resolv.conf. This file is needed because MiNTlib's resolver expects to find this config-file at this location. dhclient (the DHCP client) doesn't require a "unix" folder hierarchy either, which is why it's working without any on the FireBee and in VanillaMiNT. More about this later.

And large disk space is handled by the harddisk driver and the kernel's filesystem. No external tools or config-files are required (or even used).

Btw what a funny discussion :) Just like the endless (and entertaining) MagiC vs MiNT threads on comp.sys.atari.st, just replace "MagiC" with "no unix".
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:06 pm

wongck wrote:There is a big secret that you do not know... the installer does install a shell. A tiny one, but nevertheless it is a shell.


Of course there is a shell on the FireBee's CF-card. As you know, dhclient requires this. To you other guys who doesn't know how dhclient (the DHCP client that sets up the network automagically): When dhclient receives a lease, it runs a shell script. This shell script does the actual network configuring - like creating u:\etc\resolv.conf and setting up the interface and the routing table. A shell script is nothing but a text file containing a program that is interpreted by - here it comes - a shell. In this case bash.

I could have replaced this shell script with a C program. But I didn't, because it would have required a lot of work. It would have been faster and used a lot less memory, but with 512Mb RAM and a 266MHz CPU I figured it wasn't worth it. When I did the same for the plain Falcon OTOH it became very clear that the unix way eats resources like there's no tomorrow. With a 4Mb Falcon it wouldn't even be possible to use dhclient, as the shell alone use a bit over one Megabyte. So I might replace that shell-script with a C-program some time in the future.

Anyway, this is completely irrelevant. We all know that Matthias is talking about the user interface and not an interpreter that is running a program. And there is no user shell in the FireBee FreeMiNT setup. You can run bash.ttp from the desktop and get a prompt, but there is no $PATH and no tools so it can't be used for anything. This will come later.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:24 pm

Mathias wrote:One further point: even a small Unix setup can be very strange to Atari users. The crazy folder structure, ext2 partitions and the need to shutdown (or the strange tests at bootup).


You always need to shut down a computer with a HD datacache properly, this includes plain TOS. Either you wait a few seconds until the cache has been flushed, or you run the shutdown program, or - as I do - press Ctrl+Alt+Delete. This is not specific to a "unix setup" or the ext2 filesystem.

The "strange tests at bootup" you're referring to is probably the filesystem consistency checks. This is a Good Thing, and my FireBee FreeMiNT setup sliently does this on ext2 partitions. I hope to add a similar test to FAT-partitions in the future.

We're totally on the same page about the crazy folder structure though. It's perhaps the single most annoying thing about unix and derivates. I'm using Linux on a daily basis at home, but luckily modern Linux distributions are so successful at hiding this insane mess that I don't care. I don't have to relate to this madness at all, and the computers are so fast and have so much RAM that the wasted resources really doesn't matter.

On the Atari we can't expect such a level of sophistication. There are very few developers left, and there's simply not enough resources to create a smooth and well-functioning environment like Ubuntu or OSX.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby jfl » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:42 pm

joska wrote:The "strange tests at bootup" you're referring to is probably the filesystem consistency checks. This is a Good Thing, and my FireBee FreeMiNT setup sliently does this on ext2 partitions. I hope to add a similar test to FAT-partitions in the future.

This is a good idea but unfortunately it never worked for me (with the default settings), as I already mentioned to you on the mintlist. I hope you'll have the time to look into this one day.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:45 pm

wongck wrote:From my limited knowledge of how DHCP for MINT is made, the DHCP will make use of IFCONFIG & ROUTE (these 2 are Unix ports) after it does some data crunching, and these are all done via a shell.


ifconfig and route are not unix-ports, they are written from scratch for MiNTnet and is a part of MiNT/MiNTnet. These tools exists on all systems that has sockets, like Windows. You're not claiming that Windows is unix just because it has ifconfig, route, ping etc? ;)

wongck wrote:I am be wrong as this is just my understanding of how MINT DHCP works, I do not have a FB to check it out.


A short explanation follows. This applies to VanillaMiNT as well as it's 100% identical to the FireBee setup in this aspect:

Inside the c:\mint folder there is a folder called "sys". Inside this folder I've put all the necessary binaries and config-files for networking, including dhcp. For networking without DHCP this means route.ttp, ifconfig.ttp and resolv.conf (the latter generated by the network configuration tool). For DHCP you'll need additional stuff. The DHCP-client itself (dhclient.ttp), a shell (sh.ttp), "echo" (echo.ttp) and the shell-script that dhclient runs. That's a total of six files. All of these can basically be put anywhere you like, you don't need a "unix" folder hierarchy at all. True, dhclient expects the script to be in a certain location (and also specific folders to save the lease-file etc in) by default, but you can override this on it's command-line. And this is exactly what I do. As a result, the only "unix" folder you need is u:\etc. Not because of DHCP or MiNTnet, but because programs that use MiNTnet expects this file to be present.

The network configuration tool takes care of generating the necessary config-file to start dhclient or setting up static network settings. For most users this means that you never have to edit config-files manually or set up the network from the command line.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby jfl » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:49 pm

joska wrote:We're totally on the same page about the crazy folder structure though. It's perhaps the single most annoying thing about unix and derivates.

I must admit I'm mystified by this kind of comment. I find the Windows directory structure completely unintelligible. OS X is slightly better but not that much. At least under Unix a binary is in a bin directory and a library in a lib directory. What modern example of an OS with a sensible directory structure do you have? I'm really curious about this.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:31 pm

jfl wrote:You are absolutely right, of course. The Bash shell is an integral part of the FreeMiNT setup of the FireBee, along with a couple of shell scripts and other Unix programs needed to set up networking.


Yes, dhclient, bash and echo are unix-ports. And there is a shell-script. But this doesn't make the FireBee setup "unix", as the complaints about a missing unix-like setup clearly demonstrates.

Again, Matthias is talking about the user interface and not the origins of the source-code for some components. There is no Command Line Interface in the current FireBee setup, and there is a very good reason for that. Both Vincent Riviere and I made "unix"-setups for the FireBee shortly after MiNT became usable on it. These setups (several versions of each in fact) was "released" internally on the FireBee developer forum, and they work. They are very different, reflecting the different needs of the authors ;) Vincent's is more proper unix, while mine is very lightweight and runs from the RAM-disk.

We could have gone the easy way and just polished up either of these and released it with the FireBee. But Matthias was very clear - the FireBee must offer a smooth experience for the average user. For this reason he didn't want to use MiNT at all! Like so many others he believed that MiNT == unix and a complicated command line interface. So to persuade him I set up the simplest possible MiNT-setup to show him that it could be 100% GEM and still offer networking, proper filesystem support, real multitasking etc. Then I spent many hours creating some GEM-tools and fine-tuning the setup to make the user experience as smooth as possible, which I think was reasonably successful judging from the user feedback.

Now, we could have spent even more time and added the unix-side as well. But it's a matter of time and resources. It will come later, but the first step was to make sure that the newbies and MiNT-virgins was included. Considering that a surprising number of FireBee-customers are coming back to the Atari after many years of inactivity I think that this is more important than saving the unix-addicts some initial work ;)
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:38 pm

jfl wrote:This is a good idea but unfortunately it never worked for me (with the default settings), as I already mentioned to you on the mintlist. I hope you'll have the time to look into this one day.


It doesn't work here either, unless I partition the CF-card and init the partitions on my Milan. When I partition and format the card under Linux the fs-check doesn't work. I will look into this at some point.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby jfl » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:50 pm

joska wrote:Now, we could have spent even more time and added the unix-side as well. But it's a matter of time and resources. It will come later, but the first step was to make sure that the newbies and MiNT-virgins was included. Considering that a surprising number of FireBee-customers are coming back to the Atari after many years of inactivity I think that this is more important than saving the unix-addicts some initial work ;)

I absolutely agree with this. I always said the FreeMiNT setup was a pretty good achievement. And as I already said, as long as the GNU/BSD commands and libraries aren't build for the ColdFire CPU providing them for the 'Bee is not the priority. By the way, sh.ttp, echo.ttp and such that come with the setup, are they ColdFire builds?
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:52 pm

jfl wrote:
joska wrote:We're totally on the same page about the crazy folder structure though. It's perhaps the single most annoying thing about unix and derivates.

I must admit I'm mystified by this kind of comment. I find the Windows directory structure completely unintelligible. OS X is slightly better but not that much.


I did not say that Windows or OSX are any better.

jfl wrote: At least under Unix a binary is in a bin directory and a library in a lib directory. What modern example of an OS with a sensible directory structure do you have? I'm really curious about this.


I don't see the relevance here. Most modern operating systems (Windows excluded) are good at hiding the mess of the system folder(s) under a good GUI. It really doesn't matter if the underlying system is a horrible mess as long as the end user is able to (de)install programs in a fairly easy way, and the system is able to maintain itself. Unfortunately this isn't the case with any "unixy" system I've used on my Ataris.
Last edited by joska on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby joska » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:54 pm

jfl wrote:By the way, sh.ttp, echo.ttp and such that come with the setup, are they ColdFire builds?


sh, echo and dhclient is lifted from SpareMiNT so they are 68k. It doesn't matter though, they only run once during boot so you'll never notice that they're slightly slower than pure ColdFire binaries.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby wongck » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:48 am

joska wrote:
wongck wrote:When I started using MINT 15 or more years ago, there was no Unix-like extension for it and it works great multitasking on the STFM.


When I started using MiNT in 1995 the TAF "Internet Kit" and KGMD was available and fairly widely used. KGMD was the first "real" unix-like setup for MiNT back then. I used for years, from 1996 (IIRC) to around 2003 on my Falcon/AB. I even wrote a small guide on how to adapt it to N.AES.

Well. Yes, there were there easily available if you're in EU.
Over here, we are stuck with some pre-Mint 1.08 version. I had Mint 1,08 only when I got my Falcon as it came with it. That opened up more opportunities.

joska wrote:Not correct. Networking doesn't require any "unix"-environment at all except the presence of the file u:\etc\resolv.conf. This file is needed because MiNTlib's resolver expects to find this config-file at this location. dhclient (the DHCP client) doesn't require a "unix" folder hierarchy either, which is why it's working without any on the FireBee and in VanillaMiNT. More about this later.

Sure it's not a Unix environment, In any case, we only have a Unix-like environment even now after all these years.... :roll:
joska wrote:Btw what a funny discussion :) Just like the endless (and entertaining) MagiC vs MiNT threads on comp.sys.atari.st, just replace "MagiC" with "no unix".

Ha ha.... we just need Sinclap here now :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby wongck » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:55 am

joska wrote:
wongck wrote:From my limited knowledge of how DHCP for MINT is made, the DHCP will make use of IFCONFIG & ROUTE (these 2 are Unix ports) after it does some data crunching, and these are all done via a shell.


ifconfig and route are not unix-ports, they are written from scratch for MiNTnet and is a part of MiNT/MiNTnet. These tools exists on all systems that has sockets, like Windows. You're not claiming that Windows is unix just because it has ifconfig, route, ping etc? ;)


Windows is definately not Unix.... :mrgreen:
But Windows is actually VMS as the original developers came from that environment.
We all know how the DEC engineers are :wink:.
BTW, the same blue screen you get when a VMS panics. :lol: :lol: :lol:
But how much have Windows moved now, when it panics now.... the srceen looks like Google Chrome crashes.... so I wonder if Windows is moving toward Unix-like. :wink:
Some thoughts when for you when incidents are low.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby wongck » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:02 am

joska wrote:Now, we could have spent even more time and added the unix-side as well. But it's a matter of time and resources. It will come later, but the first step was to make sure that the newbies and MiNT-virgins was included. Considering that a surprising number of FireBee-customers are coming back to the Atari after many years of inactivity I think that this is more important than saving the unix-addicts some initial work ;)


There was a project Manta, IIRC, to make GUI to Unix command line tools.
That was a good idea.
I think it did not go too far, but may be the originator would move on a bit more after this discussion here.
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby wongck » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:16 am

joska wrote:ifconfig and route are not unix-ports, they are written from scratch for MiNTnet and is a part of MiNT/MiNTnet. These tools exists on all systems that has sockets, like Windows. You're not claiming that Windows is unix just because it has ifconfig, route, ping etc? ;)
.

If that's the case then the developer should just have stayed away from using the exact cryptic parameters and cryptic output format that are found in Unix, so long as they do not make it even more cryptic like the Windows counterpart.

They should have stayed to the good simple Atari GUI design.

Sure, we have to thanks all those who created and make these software for us to use.
Especially Eric who wanted to port Unix/Linux/whatever programs to Atari. So he created an Unix-like environment to make this job easier called something "Is Not Tos".
So for sure we are not talking about the same software here because it is for sure he want a Unix-like environment to do this porting......

<think> <think like Winnie the Pooh>... oh of course we are talking about FreeMint here.
Not the same as what stuff as Atari version which is something "Is Now Tos" but wait..... Free Mint is a proposed name by Eric for his something "Is Not Tos" ....

duh!! Now I am confused.
I think I will stop this now and go continue working on my next program.... and celebrate Chinese Lunar New Year. :mrgreen:
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby jens » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:31 pm

Mathias, everyone has kept from telling you the meaning of those vocabulary:

dir, dirctory = folder
cd (change directory) = go to folder
/u = U:\
/u/c = C:\ seen from U:\
executably = program, application (app, prg, gtp, ttp, tos)
cli , command line interface = shell
working directory = directory in which an executable, sorry: program finds its necessary files


I can understand your situation and if a linux/ unix guy tells me to stop calling directories folders I'm usually not certain about laughing or cursing at him.
Greetings, Jens

Falcon030 - TT030 - Mega/STe - 1040 STf - 520 ST+ - ST-Book - Milan 060

Mathias
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby Mathias » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:03 pm

Perfectly Jens!

May it be that you understand me as you are also using Mac OS 9?

Anyway, please consider to do a "fist Steps" for FreeMiNT-Unix greenhorns! No joke! If you could do a small 4 pages "howto" about basic philosophies, that would help a lot, and reduce communication problems.
MegaST 4 with Sounddesigner II MegaBus hardware and 56001, Hades 040, MagiC Mac at Mac OS 9 and a FireBee.

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shoggoth
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Re: FreeMiNT Philosophys (was NetSurf GEM Port)

Postby shoggoth » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:15 pm

How about *not* turning this into a GUI vs. command line cat fight, we're grown ups.

Opintions:
- the standard unix file hierarchy stinks
- the standard unix file hierarchy is the best thing since sliced bread
- command line stuff is difficult to use
- command line stuff is dead easy
- GUI stuff is superior
- GUI stuff is inherently retarded
...

Facts:
- the unix file hierarchy can be stuffed in U: and hence won't get in the way for people who want things "the old Atari TOS 1.0" way.
- having access to unix tools as standard does in no way by definition restrict those who don't wish to use it.
- a fair deal of developers prefer to have unix tools as standard + a unix file hierarchy, since for them, that means lots of benefits when developing stuff (<---!).

Can we dispense of the bull, please?
Ain't no space like PeP-space.


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