Backward software compatability

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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby Mathias » Mon Oct 03, 2011 4:24 pm

Mal7921 wrote:The thing to remember though is that the is backward compatibility and backward compatibility.

The STe is backward compatible with the ST range, however there are older programs that will not run. Same for the TT030 and the Falcon. These all use processors from the same family, with similar core instructions.

The firebee introduces a new processor into the mix, new hardware and in reality provides an emulation of older hardware, not the actual hardware itself, so it has to be expected that some software will not run.

Even the playstation 2 had trouble running some playstation 1 games, and that was "fully backward compatible" with older games, so if Sony with the resources at it's disposal has trouble making everything work, how can you expect a group of volunteers on the firebee to do any better?

Given time they may well do better, especially if more talented people join in and help test and complete things like the DSP emulation and other such sections, but until them all we can be is patient. Things improve, but rarely overnight, Windows Vista is a good example, lousy OS on launch but by the time Windows 7 launched it was a fairly reliable OS, even if it was still a mess in places and incompatible with many older applications.

The STe, TT and Falcon all had a hardware base to start development from, firebee did not. It had to be built from the ground up and any hardware for backward compatibility "programmed", which at least has helped with the process of chip fabrication. While Atari had to spend a lot of money designing and fabricating prototype chips which could not be re-used if anything was wrong, these guys could wipe the chip and start again, but the design process still takes a lot of time.

I suppose in future if you wanted ST compatibility to be improved, a complete ST could be built into the architecture, but that's up to the developers. But if you did that, where then do you draw the line?

Compatibility will be as good as it can be at that given time. As the system can be improved, the compatibility will also improve over time. I'm sure if the team had the resources of a large major hardware vendor, they would have this sorted and out of the door, but they don't. They do this off their own backs and give their time for us, the least we can do as a community is be patient and help wherever we can.

As for compatibility, if an application can run, the application is compatible and where one runs, others will follow.


Thanks Malcolm for that kind and true words! It is exactly what I feel, what I try to communicate. And I am glad that we as team are able to make you and others understand whats going on.

But I have to say, that most people are patient. 2 and 1/2 years ago I never thought that we willl recive so much positive feedback, even if we are slower than we expected in the beginning. Some people paid for example two years ago the complete FireBee and still do not put pressure on us. Thats graet! You all as community are great! And together we´ll do it.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby Mathias » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:55 am

Here is a first preview of tested and working applications at the FireBee. It´s from 27th of September 2011. You will notice that some working applications are missing. Also you will see that some tests were made before NVDI was working at the FireBee.

Count this as a perview. Updates will follow.

All applications were tested with standard FireTOS and FreeMiNT.

Have fun.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby vido » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:46 am

Mathias wrote:Here is a first preview of tested and working applications at the FireBee. It´s from 27th of September 2011. You will notice that some working applications are missing. Also you will see that some tests were made before NVDI was working at the FireBee.

Count this as a perview. Updates will follow.

All applications were tested with standard FireTOS and FreeMiNT.


Thanks for the list Mathias!
Seems quite some apps are working on Firebee. But it would be nice to see all applications tested on the list. Also
the applications which dont work. Yes I know Firebee is work in progress and this will change to the better :)

I am also curious if NeoN Grafix works? It was allready tested or you still need someone to provide this test?

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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby TTowner » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:17 pm

Great to see a definitive answer to my question. Thank you for your efforts, A regular updated list would be superb.

Hope to see this become a brilliant piece of tech.

Keep up the good work.
Still available for beta testing if you change your mind! :D
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby Mathias » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:43 am

Well I will not go to list non-working applications recently. Some of them could work with playing around with the Cache options. Several of the will work with one of the next TOS updates. Some of them have to be solved like Calamus or Cubase. Maybe I will make a "official" list in the upcoming months. About NeoN Grafix I do not have a copy for testing, ...
does it use the DSP?

And yes the list will be updated.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby Orion_ » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:11 pm

NeoN use a dongle, so I don't know if the dongle port is available on the firebee ?
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby vido » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:34 pm

Orion_ wrote:NeoN use a dongle, so I don't know if the dongle port is available on the firebee ?


Latest version of NeoN I bought in Neuss Atari fair dont use the dongle. The price was only 50 DM
for Falcon and TT version.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby nativ » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:10 pm

neon for 50dm! Where's a link?
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby christos » Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:57 pm

nativ wrote:neon for 50dm! Where's a link?


In the year 2000. DM stopped existing in 2001 ;) . It shouldn't be too hard to find neon floating around ;) . I remember hearing a lot of good things about Neon. Vido, I would be very interested to see any work you might have done with it. (enough hijacking of the topic though)

I bet some of the musicians would be interested to know if stuff like maxymizer would work (Ace too of course but after the dsp is implemented).
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby nativ » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:09 am

I might be useful in the longer term with the dsp stuff! @ least when I finish reading these books I have!

Only the euromonster ChrisTOS! € would have been better as an intermediary currency, for online trading!

Are the neon creators around?
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby Mathias » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:42 am

In the year 2000. DM stopped existing in 2001

Drop me a mail with all the availaible informations about company, developers, distributors etc. I will try my best. Worked with Thing, Profibuch, Emailer, etc. as well. Let´s see.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby vido » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:55 am

christos wrote:
nativ wrote:neon for 50dm! Where's a link?


In the year 2000. DM stopped existing in 2001 ;) . It shouldn't be too hard to find neon floating around ;) . I remember hearing a lot of good things about Neon. Vido, I would be very interested to see any work you might have done with it. (enough hijacking of the topic though)


Seems I dont remeber correctly. I found an article on the net http://www.stcarchiv.de/stc1998/03_aktuelles.php .
NeoN was 150 DM. I was confused with N.AES which I also bought there for 50 DM. ;)
Still very cheap.

Christos, if I will be able to restore my falcon HDD one day, you could see my work done with NeoN. But there was
nothing special.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby christos » Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:59 am

I meant the mark but my bad memory failed me. The mark ended in 2002. Anyway, i should have a copy of neon laying around someplace, i could extract the data.

Vido, what's the problem with the hdd? If it's a h/w one, you could get it through hdd regenerator and see if that works.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby vido » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:15 am

Mathias wrote:
In the year 2000. DM stopped existing in 2001

Drop me a mail with all the availaible informations about company, developers, distributors etc. I will try my best. Worked with Thing, Profibuch, Emailer, etc. as well. Let´s see.


This is the most I found about NeoN Grafix on the net: http://www.stcarchiv.de/ai1995/03_neon.php
There are some informetion about NeoN Grafix for OS/2.
There is a chance that rights for Atari version bought Valke Verlag. I believe http://www.falkemedia.de/
is associated with it.
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Re: Backward software compatability

Postby vido » Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:25 am

christos wrote:Vido, what's the problem with the hdd? If it's a h/w one, you could get it through hdd regenerator and see if that works.


Oh ... I hope there is nothing wrong with HDD. I sold my falcon long ago and there is its HDD laying arround.
Then I bought new falcon a year ago but I dont use it. It is waiting for supervidel. When I get it I will start using it.
Then I will see if the (scsii) hdd of my first falcon survived :)
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