Firebee (ACP) - Let's make it a REAL success!

[Beej]

Hi Matthias,

I really want to purchase the Firebee, but I'm a musician and not a technician/software programmer. So:

1. Is there any news about getting everything working in one box? When I look at the board, I don't see how it will fit in a standard case.
2. How about Cubase Audio and other audio apps (Zero-X, Avalon, ACE, Studio Son, V-Trax, Soundpool stuff) ? Do any of them work now?
3. Can I stick my midex and dongles in the rom-port
4. Any other apps tested and working?

Let me state that I admire your work! I so much want to see a real modern Atari.
So thank you very much for all the good work.

Same questions I have...as the big advantage of buying one of these would be making use of all the Falcon software and hardware addons accumulated over the years.

I think the part of Firebee that clones/emulates falcon DSP is being developed as we speak. I don't know if they kept a DSP port on it for things like FA8 and FDI.

If you're just into the MIDI side the Suska looks pretty cool...but also very pricey...not quite the value of what the Firebee will hopefully become.
http://www.experiment-s.de/en

Beej

[Mathias]

Hi!

Sorry for missing your questions for a few days.

1. Is there any news about getting everything working in one box?

We are doing a small custom enclosure recently. At the end of the year we will provide a case not much bigger than the FireBee itselve.

When I look at the board, I don't see how it will fit in a standard case.

We already discussed this issue here:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19027
If there are opened questions how to use a tower, just ask again.

2. How about Cubase Audio and other audio apps (Zero-X, Avalon, ACE, Studio Son, V-Trax, Soundpool stuff) ? Do any of them work now?

Non of them work recently, as we are still doing the 68k handler which will be needed for some 68k instructions. Cubase itselve is hardcore, as it uses the Atari-hardware directly and without TOS. But MCS also made it working at Hades, and we know that working Cubase is one of the necessary applications for the FireBee to be widely accepted.
Aditionally Thomas Baumgärtner from Sondpool is an advisor and teammember of the ACP.

3. Can I stick my midex and dongles in the rom-port

Yes, the ROM-Port is availaible. You just need an cable from the pin-heqader to ROM-port - what can become tricky, as the ROM-Port connectors are not longer availaible. We will seek for good solutions when the first series is ready, and we have some time left.

4. Any other apps tested and working?

No. Be sure we publish every interresting news at http://acp.atari.org
As maximum you have a delay of 2 weeks for the translations into 6 languages.

[Mathias]

I think the part of Firebee that clones/emulates falcon DSP is being developed as we speak. I don't know if they kept a DSP port on it for things like FA8 and FDI.

Yes, the DSP for the FPGA is under development. It will not be ready when shipping the FireBees to the first customers. The DSP port is recently not present. But as the DSP is inside the FPGA, it can be done at our "Expansion Socket" where several singnals are in existance for addon use.
You need to really understand what great possibilities that FPGA gives us. We can rout every signal everywhere! For example we also thought about doing the DSP port at the SCSI connector. The possibilities are unlimited. The question is "what will the Atari community do with the tool we are producing" ?

If you're just into the MIDI side the Suska looks pretty cool...but also very pricey...not quite the value of what the Firebee will hopefully become.
http://www.experiment-s.de/en

Yeah, I got one Suska at home for testing. And even if not every driver is done at the III-C, it is a great board! The work Wolfgang Förster did for the Atari community the last 7 years is soo important!
He simply made the Ataris deathless as every custom chip is now at our hands in VHDL and Open Source! For example we couldn´t have done the FireBee without Wolfgangs work.

[Beej]

Yes, the ROM-Port is availaible. You just need an cable from the pin-heqader to ROM-port - what can become tricky, as the ROM-Port connectors are not longer availaible. We will seek for good solutions when the first series is ready, and we have some time left.

Sources for Rom Port Parts........
I called Wizztronics recently to get a Falcon Rack: http://www.wizztronics.com/ (The website isn't working very well but they do answer the phone).

I don't know how many they have left, and if they'll still let them go without getting a rack kit as well...but Wizztronics still has rom port extender cable sets in stock. These are two small boards with nice mounting points in the design, and a ribbon cable between them (both ends socketed so no solder required to change cables)...one end is the old cartridge port card edge, the other is the female bus to plug the cartridge on. I don't know if these are the buffered types or not (makes it safer to change cartridges while the machine is powered up)...but all of the precious connectors are there...on good quality pcbs.

They also still have some of the two port Dongle/Rom Cartridge Switchers (CartMaster Lite). Again I don't know how many...but these really are nice and simple boards with a couple of different jumpered port access modes available. They would give you most of the bits needed to wire one into a Firebee. While it has the typical male card edge connector...the contacts of that era are nice and wide...certianly should be easy enough to solder on an adapter offering a more common connector, or to wire wire direct to the Firebee.

Best Electronics also has a ton of interesting stuff...pallets and pallets of original Atari bits and pieces. Might be worth a call if you're looking for goodies to build various old Atari ports and cables. http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/

Beej

[Mathias]

Thanks for the advice! The two companies seem to be the ones with the biggest storage of Atari parts. As I said month before, I also hope about dealers to quickly provide some solutions.
In every case we will provide every necessary cable like PS'/2 doubler, MIDI-Breakout (from Mini-DIN to 3 DIN), ROM/Dongle Port, etc. but I have no clue how long it will take. But the aim is to offer everything!

[Beej]

A thought occurred...
With the right price point, and a permission/exchange system from possible patent owners, all of the DSP hardware (CAC, FA8, FDI, etc.) could be built right into the Firebee right? Thus making the external boxes like CAC/FDI/FA8 obsolete.

Maybe even possible to put dongle images (with licenses of course) on one of the chips with some kind of switches to access them on the fly as needed?

Seems doable in theory...correct me if I'm wrong.

That would be really nice...if you could order your Firebee and either exchange your old dongles and hardware or purchase a fresh dongle/hardware license...and it all gets loaded up on some protected area of the Firebee board itself...ready to work out of the box...with a matrix to do virtual wiring of it all how ever you like!

The possibilities seem almost endless if this technology works as I am envisioning it.

Beej

[Mathias]

Nice thought!

A thought occurred...
With the right price point, and a permission/exchange system from possible patent owners, all of the DSP hardware (CAC, FA8, FDI, etc.) could be built right into the Firebee right? Thus making the external boxes like CAC/FDI/FA8 obsolete.

Seems doable in theory...correct me if I'm wrong.

I don´t exactly know the harware you are talking about. The question is what needs to be done for In/Out. For example I have a MegaBUS Digidesign card. The DSP (56001) could be replaced by the FPGA mapping, but not the AD/DA converter. So the FireBee would need at least a small addonboard with the converters to replace my hardware and work with Sounddesigner II, ... It´s doable, but as always the question occures if it´s worth the needed work?
Let´s keep that in mind, and talk to Thomas Baumgärtner once the DSP is ready and debugged.

Maybe even possible to put dongle images (with licenses of course) on one of the chips with some kind of switches to access them on the fly as needed?

That would be really nice...if you could order your Firebee and either exchange your old dongles and hardware or purchase a fresh dongle/hardware license...and it all gets loaded up on some protected area of the Firebee board itself...ready to work out of the box...with a matrix to do virtual wiring of it all how ever you like!

Really nice, but I doubt, that Cubase or Logic, will give us permission. Neither Apple nor Avid is interrested now in dealing around with us small and uninterresting groups - and people could even think they are oldfashioned, when a wide range of persons recognise that their applications also worked well at 8MHz in the 1980ies, ... thats how the concerns think - sadly. Even Bitstream did not react at all, when we tried to find solutions for NVDI last year, ... and that´s a company with less than 99 employies.

The possibilities seem almost endless if this technology works as I am envisioning it.

Beej

Exactly!

[Waxjoz]

hi Mathias,

Thanks for your reply. You've answered my questions clearly.

As I've said I'm not a technician. But do I understand it right that some hardware like DSP get a software solution?

Hi!

Sorry for missing your questions for a few days.

1. Is there any news about getting everything working in one box?

We are doing a small custom enclosure recently. At the end of the year we will provide a case not much bigger than the FireBee itselve.

When I look at the board, I don't see how it will fit in a standard case.

We already discussed this issue here:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=19027
If there are opened questions how to use a tower, just ask again.

2. How about Cubase Audio and other audio apps (Zero-X, Avalon, ACE, Studio Son, V-Trax, Soundpool stuff) ? Do any of them work now?

Non of them work recently, as we are still doing the 68k handler which will be needed for some 68k instructions. Cubase itselve is hardcore, as it uses the Atari-hardware directly and without TOS. But MCS also made it working at Hades, and we know that working Cubase is one of the necessary applications for the FireBee to be widely accepted.
Aditionally Thomas Baumgärtner from Sondpool is an advisor and teammember of the ACP.

3. Can I stick my midex and dongles in the rom-port

Yes, the ROM-Port is availaible. You just need an cable from the pin-heqader to ROM-port - what can become tricky, as the ROM-Port connectors are not longer availaible. We will seek for good solutions when the first series is ready, and we have some time left.

4. Any other apps tested and working?

No. Be sure we publish every interresting news at http://acp.atari.org
As maximum you have a delay of 2 weeks for the translations into 6 languages.

[Waxjoz]

Yes, the DSP for the FPGA is under development. It will not be ready when shipping the FireBees to the first customers. The DSP port is recently not present. But as the DSP is inside the FPGA, it can be done at our "Expansion Socket" where several singnals are in existance for addon use.
You need to really understand what great possibilities that FPGA gives us. We can rout every signal everywhere! For example we also thought about doing the DSP port at the SCSI connector.

In that case Thomas from Soundpool would have to make a hardware converter, because the DSP hardware wouldn't fit on SCSI outputs?

[Mathias]

As I've said I'm not a technician.

I am also no technician!

But do I understand it right that some hardware like DSP get a software solution?

Not exactly. Simplyfied, the FPGA is a chip, whom is told by software, how to behave - which kind of hardware to be. The " hardware description language" is used to make the FPGA to act exactly like the original chip. Plus; it is on the fly reconfigurabel (while running). So we can "hardware emulate" the chips like the DSP.

So there has to be written some code to tell the hardware how to be configured. You do not write a program for the FPGA you configure the FPGA. It´s done often (Minimig, SuperVidel, Galaxy, etc.). Start here for further informations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FPGA?useskin=monobook

[Beej]

Sad but true about the big software companies these days.

At any rate, it sounds like this will be a really neat board with much potential beyond a Falcon Clone...
It could be used to prototype all kinds of equipment right?

Wish we'd had stuff like this in the TV station I worked in back in 1996
I well recall spending as much as 10 grand each for very simple custom circuits that took up entire rooms and only did one thing! Yeah...most of the expense was building racks, cooling, and extra structural support to keep it from bringing the building down from all the weight!

Good luck with Firebee...
I'll be watching

Beej

[Mathias]

Yes, the DSP for the FPGA is under development. It will not be ready when shipping the FireBees to the first customers. The DSP port is recently not present. But as the DSP is inside the FPGA, it can be done at our "Expansion Socket" where several singnals are in existance for addon use.
You need to really understand what great possibilities that FPGA gives us. We can rout every signal everywhere! For example we also thought about doing the DSP port at the SCSI connector.

In that case Thomas from Soundpool would have to make a hardware converter, because the DSP hardware wouldn't fit on SCSI outputs?

Yes. But this should be doable with a simple cable which can be easily done. Just from the SCSI (or we could also take the ACSI pins) to a DB connector.

[Waxjoz]

Thanx Mathias,

I think I understand now.

[Mathias]

Sad but true about the big software companies these days.

So we have to do it by our own! ;) But it seems to work well, and all the small "Atari-Scene companies" are on board.

At any rate, it sounds like this will be a really neat board with much potential beyond a Falcon Clone...
It could be used to prototype all kinds of equipment right?

Yes. It is interresting for everything that fits inside the FPGA. Also FireBee is now the chapest availaible, AND the best equipped Coldfire V4 Evaluationboard. It can also be interresting for people searching a smart and low power Server for special needs and very special aims done inside the FPGA. But we have noone inside the team who is inside the embedded scene. So I cannot tell if we can offer it at the right places and make it known there, ...

Wish we'd had stuff like this in the TV station I worked in back in 1996 ;)

Hahaha, I also worked at a TV station as a playout operator. We had in 2001 just two NT-Servers for playout of the commercials. So twice a day we had On Air freezes (of the commercials - what a embarrassing situation every day again and again)! I remember to beg our technicians in measurement technology of using some Macs with OS9 for playout (or some other alternative and stable OS). They didn't like to change it, even If I told them that our AVID and Media100 Cutting Places in use, are already PowerMacs, ... ;)

[Dal]

Right this has really thrown a new argument into the mix. I was set on getting a Falcon or TT (after stupidly selling my last Falcon) however, this FireBee project could very well blow that out of the water.

My questions:
1. Can we expect 100% Falcon compatibility in the near future?
2. Could we realistically reach ultimate Atari 'utopia' with this project (i.e STE and Falcon support - with over 90% games and applications working)?
3. What is the Floppy disk support like? (I have a HxC Floppy emulator so I would like to use a real floppy drive or the emulator - or maybe both??)

[Mathias]

1. Can we expect 100% Falcon compatibility in the near future?

No, at least not in near Future. What we will have (as soon as the DSP is ready) is a compatibility of Falcon applications written in GEM. We will have nearly 100% compatibility to them, but not to Falcon applications using the hardware beside TOS. This means, as soon as it comes to direct hardware usage from the applications we have some problems. For example we would need the original clock of all the custom chips. That would mean to have an CPU with 16 Mhz. But our CPU is 266. This one could be solved with an 68030 inside the FPGA. I know Wolfgang Förster started to do one, but it is 350 000 gates, what is really a huge work, and will not be done the next 6 months. Also I don´t know if Wolfgang will do the 68030 as GPL when the Suska is not sold more often, ... remember he worked on it for 7 years now.

But that is not that big problem, as we have similar situation with Aranym, MagiC, Hades and Milan. I expect every program working at that environments also working at the FireBee. And for special applications like Cubase, we will try to find useful solutions.

2. Could we realistically reach ultimate Atari 'utopia' with this project (i.e STE and Falcon support - with over 90% games and applications working)?

We could. The technical possibilities are here with the hardware. Also the hardware is availaible for a fair price (remember Hades 060 was around $2500 because of the more expansive parts and the 68060). But it needs a wide acceptance of the machine, and some more manpower, especially at VHDL development. I expect the project not to be finished within the next two years, and some improvements also in 3-5 years.

For me personally a working browser (including CSS, JS, SSL) as a DVD decoder is much more important, to replace Macs and PCs by the FireBee again as daily productive machines, than compatibility to old games and Demos, which can be done at our existing Ataris. But let´s see what the coders will do.

3. What is the Floppy disk support like? (I have a HxC Floppy emulator so I would like to use a real floppy drive or the emulator - or maybe both??)

Floppy reading is already working like usual with an wd1772 implementation. For formatting we need some improvements (dma, etc.).

For future improvements we are in contact with Jean-François Del Nero, but I also do not promise anything here.

[Mathias]

I expect the project not to be finished within the next two years, and some improvements also in 3-5 years.

Reading my own posting again, I discovered that it could be understood wrong
I ecpect drivers, externals, software, VHDL configurations and other improvements done the next years. Of course we deliver the first series in 2010, as alwas said!

[christos]

Can we assume that the falcon "emulation" will have a similar success rate as ct60 when it comes to h/w? Is videl for example emulated?

[Mathias]

Can we assume that the falcon "emulation" will have a similar success rate as ct60 when it comes to h/w? Is videl for example emulated?

Well Videl is present, and timings etc. can affect the SW in similar ways at CT and FireBee. So you might be right that CT & Supervidel has a simmilar success rate like the FireBee. But I will not assure that now, as long as the DSP etc. is not ready. But your thought is in general absolutely right.

[macsociety]

What is the current state of Firebee? Is it now shipping and in what form?

I heard by years end a case would be available for Firebee. Are there are mock-ups of the cases yet?

TJ

[wongck]

It's shipping?
Excellent well done guys.

[rocket-dog]

I hope photos and YouTube videos will appear soon. Only wish I could buy one.

[macsociety]

It's shipping?
Excellent well done guys.

When did they start shipping them?

Anyone in the know have any new info on the case for the board?

tj

[wongck]

Bummer....

[Mathias]

For informations, please read our homepage. Every interresting information is published there! Always!

http://acp.atari.org


About shipping: we started to ship to developers. So there are some FireBees out there. But we did NOT start to ship to end-customers!


About the enclosure. The first custom case is under construction, I personally take care about it, together with Bernhard. It will be a black aluminium case, not much bigger than the FireBee itselve (around 30 x 10 x 3 cm). Done by a small electronic-enclosures company in Vienna. They produce nice 19" racks, mixer enclosures, etc. for at least 30 years. So we have a partner which will be able to produce the enclosure in small amounts , but very good quality. If everything goes well, the enclosure shall be ready together with the first FireBee shipping date this year, and will be below 50,- Euros. It includes a small mono speaker, several LEDs (SD-Card access, CF/IDE activity, Power on) and the laquering of the enclosure.

Recently we have our drawings. The CAD files themselves will be done from the company, because they know their production process. As soon as the prototypes are done, we will present them at our webpge and ask for preorders together with the FireBees (so that we have a knowledge, how many FireBee buyers like an enclosure). The enclosure is released under Creative Commons, distribution will be organized through Medus Computer System in Switzerland.