Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

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Moulinaie
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Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Moulinaie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:37 pm

Hello,

Just for fun...
I tried to run NetSurf on the Atari TT... waow!
I wanted to reach this forum and post a message, but...
Getting to the home page of Atari-Forum : more than 5 minutes.
Login : more than 2 minutes
Getting to the "Gallery" subforum.... more than 5 minutes again.
Then clicking on "new message was really hard
And writting the message impossible as the page seems to use a time based redraw that takes the whole power of the TT...

So, I just can send you the photo of the forum before I clic on the "new message" button !

Guillaume.
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby jury » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:46 pm

Even on CT63@95MHz forum loads, if I remember correctly, like 30-60 seconds. Done it few years ago, so the time loading could be a little different, but for sure was taking so long, that I gave up using it on this hardware. I guess only FireBee can handle this software.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Neurotoxic » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:32 pm

I installed different versions of Netsurf on my Milan040 and they are all very slow compared to Highwire. Even CAB is faster but it's not fair to compare these browsers to each other due to their different background and technics they use. Netsuf works on the Firebee pretty fine and it's much faster on the Firebee than on my Milan040 but it's often not capable to load compelx sites and sites with a very new and modern design. So surfing the internet with an Atari computer in 2017 is possible but it's nothing you are going to enjoy.
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Moulinaie
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Moulinaie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:59 pm

I agree about Highwire : a very good browser for slow configurations.
Then, NetSurf on TT was just a challenge... And again, the RAM is a bit short compared to the required one : I have a 32MB ram expansion but 64MB would be better. And, when Mint+XaAES are loaded, the free RAM is even shorter.

Guillaume.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby calimero » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:15 pm

This is great testimony how we manage to WASTE cycles on trivial thing like writing and sharing text.

Thanks for trying on TT.

...and then people claim how Xanadu (Ted Nelson) was technically impossible to implement in 90s... system that would have wikipedia like 'revision' system and where Copy&Paste would be replaced with 'references'... and all this would bring peace to world! ;) :)
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby jfl » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:35 am

Guillaume, I feel your pain, but just to be fair to NetSurf it has to be said that it is actually pretty fast. It's just that it does so much more than any other Atari browser (particularly with Javascript on) that any kind of comparison is unfair and doesn't make much sense. Even on my FireBee I consider NS unusable simply because I won't wait 20 seconds for a page that I get in half a second on the PC sitting next to it. Anyway, comparing current NS releases with Highwire or CAB is like comparing Firefox to St-Guide. Ok, I'm exaggerating somewhat, but you get the idea :)

Incidentally, the last time I ran CAB a few months ago I was impressed by the quality of it's UI. I had forgotten how well designed that program was.
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby ThorstenOtto » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:07 pm

jfl wrote:Incidentally, the last time I ran CAB a few months ago I was impressed by the quality of it's UI. I had forgotten how well designed that program was.


The main problem with CAB is, that due to its lack of support of CSS and Javascript, you won't be able to view most pages nowadays. Same with Highwire, which has a bit of support, but far from being good enough.

And i totally agree, when measuring performance, you just can't compare those to NS.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby christos » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:53 pm

I think that we need something more akin to chrome's make this page mobile friendly mode or firefox' reader mode and forget totally about how the site wants to display the webpage. A recent pc has a hard time displaying modern websites.
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby EmpireAndrew » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:18 pm

The problem is the websites, considering the content is just a bit of text mainly.

This page as I write this post has:

550KB of javascript.
160KB of CSS

Then there's the 73KB of HTML.

That's nearly 800KB.

Our machines don't have fast external comms for even downloading the stuff.
Just downloading the items I mention above (ie not including images in posts) would take 1 minute at around 14KB/s which if memory servers is about what I got from a NetUSBee on my TT using CAB.

That's just downloading the stuff, never mind interpreting it.

CSS although great is very processor intensive, so even if our browsers supported it well it would take a long time for it crunch.

Then there's each image which takes time to decompress.

I created a test web page in basic HTML tables, no CSS, no javascript, and added in 10x images at around 20KB each.
The whole page was around 250KB.

It took nearly a minute to download and render on my TT @ 48MHz.

Quicker than my 386DX btw...

But that's the limit for these machines. You have to avoid images as much as possible, and websites need to avoid javascript AND css.
You need to go back to late 90s in presentation.

Not an option for a modern website, but do-able if you're creating one to target as wide an audience as possible.
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Estrayk » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:05 am

Anyway, you can try CAB Browser, not CSS compatible but much, much, much more faster than Netsurf.
Take a look to this video, surfing with a stock Falcon 030:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4MxBbKGB_M
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby calimero » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:18 am

EmpireAndrew wrote:The problem is the websites, considering the content is just a bit of text mainly.


You are absolutely right.

Please read: "The Website Obesity Crisis" by http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm or
watch: http://www.webdirections.org/blog/the-w ... ty-crisis/

we totally goosed up computer world! Tons of MB for nothing!
ST-Guide is indeed better then Firefox since they both serve same purpose: reading information (with oneway jump links) and ST-Guide is way, way faster then FireFox (or Chrome...).
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Moulinaie » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:12 pm

jfl wrote:Guillaume, I feel your pain, but just to be fair to NetSurf it has to be said that it is actually pretty fast. It's just that it does so much more than any other Atari browser (particularly with Javascript on) that any kind of comparison is unfair and doesn't make much sense. Even on my FireBee I consider NS unusable simply because I won't wait 20 seconds for a page that I get in half a second on the PC sitting next to it. Anyway, comparing current NS releases with Highwire or CAB is like comparing Firefox to St-Guide. Ok, I'm exaggerating somewhat, but you get the idea :)

Incidentally, the last time I ran CAB a few months ago I was impressed by the quality of it's UI. I had forgotten how well designed that program was.


I agree with you! I wasn't expecting much from my poor ol'TT, just trying for fun.
The problem I have with CAB is that it often hangs without warning.
What is the last version ?
To be used on a TT with a NetUSBee for example.

Guillaume.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby jfl » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:29 pm

Latest CAB version is 2.8, from memory. And yes, it's not the cleanest application around.
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Moulinaie » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:50 pm

Yeehaaaa !
I'm posting from the Falcon CT060 + Radeon + Freemint 1.19 + MyAES 0.97

On this machine Netsurf is really great.

Guillaume.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby jfl » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:25 pm

Moulinaie wrote:Yeehaaaa !
I'm posting from the Falcon CT060 + Radeon + Freemint 1.19 + MyAES 0.97

On this machine Netsurf is really great.

Out of curiosity: how much time does it take to load the atari-forum.com frontpage? Just so I can compare with my Firebee.
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Moulinaie » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:45 pm

jfl wrote:Out of curiosity: how much time does it take to load the atari-forum.com frontpage? Just so I can compare with my Firebee.


It takes about 28 seconds. Much faster than the TT with 5 minutes. So, the loading rate of the NetUSBee is not the major problem on the TT, the low speed comes from the poor 68030...!

What timing on your Firebee?

Guillaume.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:00 pm

Dear Santa, Us poor Atari users need a decent speed browser for Christmas.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Moulinaie » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:02 pm

TheNameOfTheGame wrote:Dear Santa, Us poor Atari users need a decent speed browser for Christmas.


Or a decent Atari !

Guillaume.

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby vido » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:47 pm

Decent Atari and decent browser! :)

Well, NesSurf is a decent browser! If there would be some coder(s) to do more work on it and oprimize it for Atari computer/clones it could be faster.
M0n0 did great work but now he dont maintain it any more :(

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby 1st1 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:33 pm

Support Apollo 68080 in Atari ST computers! Amiga guys seems to be quite happy with Netsurf on that turbo card.
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby Neurotoxic » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:48 pm

1st1 wrote:Support Apollo 68080 in Atari ST computers! Amiga guys seems to be quite happy with Netsurf on that turbo card.


Must be done by whom? But I think we don't need a vampire discussion in every thread. :) It would be nice to compare Netsurf running on the Firebee and on a Vampire 68080 Atari Clone. I think Netsurf is going to run faster on the Firebee. :twisted:
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby vido » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:09 pm

Neurotoxic wrote:
1st1 wrote:Support Apollo 68080 in Atari ST computers! Amiga guys seems to be quite happy with Netsurf on that turbo card.


Must be done by whom? But I think we don't need a vampire discussion in every thread. :) It would be nice to compare Netsurf running on the Firebee and on a Vampire 68080 Atari Clone. I think Netsurf is going to run faster on the Firebee. :twisted:

Exactly!

Here is an old video using NetSurf on the FireBee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q6t_Jerv7c

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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby christos » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:23 pm

And this is a video on an Amiga Vampire 5:22

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KASHLnId44
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Re: Trying NetSurf on Atari TT

Postby jfl » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:37 pm

Moulinaie wrote:
jfl wrote:Out of curiosity: how much time does it take to load the atari-forum.com frontpage? Just so I can compare with my Firebee.

It takes about 28 seconds. Much faster than the TT with 5 minutes. So, the loading rate of the NetUSBee is not the major problem on the TT, the low speed comes from the poor 68030...!

What timing on your Firebee?

14 seconds, with an old version (3.1, the last built by m0n0). The current official builds are so slow they are unusable on the FireBee.
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