Paint program that can

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ROWBEARTOE
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Paint program that can

Postby ROWBEARTOE » Fri May 30, 2008 7:11 pm

I'm looking for another paint program other than Degas Elite on my Atari St that can use the entire screen as a brush and paint with it- not just stipple, but pixel by pixel. I love the feature of taking an entire image and drawing a line accross the screen then watch it draw. Degas Elite oddly enough takes advantage of the Blitter even though it was made a year before the Mega STs were available. I'm doing this to compare to the Amiga and it's Deluxe paint 2. At 320x200 the Amiga seems a few seconds faster when drawing across the enitre screen (10 seconds versus 13 (99 seconds without ST blitter)), but at 640x200 the St was MUCH faster. So I just want another program that would hopefully be faster than 10 seconds. Neochrome looks like it would be much faster, only it doesn't let you use the screen as a brush but it sure does move the picture around faster than Degas Elite.

Thanks for your help. =)

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby beastie » Fri May 30, 2008 9:31 pm

ROWBEARTOE wrote:I'm looking for another paint program other than Degas Elite on my Atari St that can use the entire screen as a brush and paint with it- not just stipple, but pixel by pixel. I love the feature of taking an entire image and drawing a line accross the screen then watch it draw. Degas Elite oddly enough takes advantage of the Blitter even though it was made a year before the Mega STs were available. I'm doing this to compare to the Amiga and it's Deluxe paint 2. At 320x200 the Amiga seems a few seconds faster when drawing across the enitre screen (10 seconds versus 13 (99 seconds without ST blitter)), but at 640x200 the St was MUCH faster. So I just want another program that would hopefully be faster than 10 seconds. Neochrome looks like it would be much faster, only it doesn't let you use the screen as a brush but it sure does move the picture around faster than Degas Elite.

Thanks for your help. =)


Hmm... I didn't exactly understand, what you're talking about, but... have you tried:

http://www.dhs.nu

already? There are a lot of painting programs, also ready for ST/STE, not only for Falcon 030. Exact link is here:

http://dhs.nu/files_gfx.php

BTW. Are you an Amiga fellow? ;-)

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby ROWBEARTOE » Sat May 31, 2008 6:23 am

I'm not an Amiga fellow- my only respect I have for Amiga is that in many ways it's the evolution of my beloved 8-Bit Atari love. I love Atari! Just recently bought an Amiga 500 to compare the two on a paper I'm doing. I wanted to benchmark the two systems with some paint programs. I grew up with the 2600, then 600Xl, 800xl, 130XE, 520ST, Mega ST4, and then the Jaguar. I was a comptuer salesman during the Atari ST, Amiga, and IBM AT clones (1988-1990).

Thanks for your help in the programs, I'll check them out. I just downloaded the Deluxe Paint Demo, I think it might do what I'm looking for?

Thanks.

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby christos » Sat May 31, 2008 6:37 am

Paint programs are extremely bad for benchmarking uses.
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Re: Paint program that can

Postby ROWBEARTOE » Sat May 31, 2008 7:03 am

Hardware is always at the mercy of software- paint programs can be good or bad, but truth is the ST blitter really increased the speed of programs like Neochrome and Degas Elite- Over 7 times faster with Degas Elite as a matter of fact. Since Degas Elite was writen b4 the Blitter, I'm just curious if a paint program really used it! The Amiga paint programs always could use their Blitter since they were always standard. =(

Thanks for you help.

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby Frank B » Sat May 31, 2008 11:09 am

ROWBEARTOE wrote:Hardware is always at the mercy of software- paint programs can be good or bad, but truth is the ST blitter really increased the speed of programs like Neochrome and Degas Elite- Over 7 times faster with Degas Elite as a matter of fact. Since Degas Elite was writen b4 the Blitter, I'm just curious if a paint program really used it! The Amiga paint programs always could use their Blitter since they were always standard. =(

Thanks for you help.


Any program on the atari that use the TOS VDI or the Line A interface to draw graphics will be using the blitter in some way or another. Interestingly enough dpaint on the ST doesn't use the blitter at all. If you want to benchmark them I'd go straight to the hardware docs :) The Amiga blitter doesn't run anywhere near it's theoretical max speed because bitplane DMA contention steals cycles from it. I'm an Amiga/ST fan too btw :)

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby beastie » Sat May 31, 2008 12:13 pm

ROWBEARTOE wrote:I'm not an Amiga fellow- my only respect I have for Amiga is that in many ways it's the evolution of my beloved 8-Bit Atari love. I love Atari! Just recently bought an Amiga 500 to compare the two on a paper I'm doing. I wanted to benchmark the two systems with some paint programs. I grew up with the 2600, then 600Xl, 800xl, 130XE, 520ST, Mega ST4, and then the Jaguar. I was a comptuer salesman during the Atari ST, Amiga, and IBM AT clones (1988-1990).

Thanks for your help in the programs, I'll check them out. I just downloaded the Deluxe Paint Demo, I think it might do what I'm looking for?

Thanks.


So, you've an opportunity to watch all this things in the most interesting era. I've been a kid at that time :-)... still.

I'm happy I could help a little bit.

BTW. Have you already seen some coparisions by Ahle2 on youtube - it's worth watching, here you have the links:
1) Atari ST vs Amiga in pictures (I must say, that I was impressed by the ST, because of its hardware limitations and still a very good result comparing to Amiga. Moreover, on TV screen, the result was even better ;-)
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=XASnGpemk_M
2) Atari ST vs Amiga in games (hmm... It's a well known fact, that most of the games on Amiga are better - but still worth to see how much better they were)
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=EcfEP9OEe ... h_response
3) Atari ST vs Amiga in games (ok... we all know, that Shadow of the Beast was crap on ST :-)
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=e5ic3Fy-t ... h_response

Maybe it will also help you somehow.

PS. Power to the People (and Power without Price) - I'm sure you know what I mean by this joke, as we both like 8-bit Ataris also ;-)

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby christos » Sat May 31, 2008 4:16 pm

Ahle2 makes an interesting "mistake" in the comments. A. stating that SOTB is the only ST game with "true" parallax scrolling and B. thinking that SOTB is pushing the ST hardware. For A. he seems to be forgetting enchanted land for some reasons (10 layers of parallax scrolling and 1vbl) and for B. he doesn't have a clue of how inefficient the code in the ST version of SOTB is. Some crackers can verify that claim (there is an interesting story of how one can increase the game speed by 15% changing one small thing). SOTB is the worse example for game comparison. I feel that psygnosis created it in such a way on the ST in order to prove a point and . OTOH it is an extremely awful game and tbh I prefer playing the main menu of dark side of the spoon than that.
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Re: Paint program that can

Postby beastie » Sat May 31, 2008 4:44 pm

christos wrote:Ahle2 makes an interesting "mistake" in the comments. A. stating that SOTB is the only ST game with "true" parallax scrolling and B. thinking that SOTB is pushing the ST hardware. For A. he seems to be forgetting enchanted land for some reasons (10 layers of parallax scrolling and 1vbl) and for B. he doesn't have a clue of how inefficient the code in the ST version of SOTB is. Some crackers can verify that claim (there is an interesting story of how one can increase the game speed by 15% changing one small thing). SOTB is the worse example for game comparison. I feel that psygnosis created it in such a way on the ST in order to prove a point and . OTOH it is an extremely awful game and tbh I prefer playing the main menu of dark side of the spoon than that.


I agree with you in 100%. We can see in some demos, not only in Enchanted Lands, that true parallax could be done properly. I believe, that Psygnosis, being rather Amiga oriented, could make such an awful version of the game to - is some ways - improve the Amiga "marketing". You know, I'll show you quite nice game on one platform and an awful port on another, still competing, and you will be free to make your own conclusions. I saw a lot of such - negative - approaches, for example, in some press, in my country, in the begining of the 90s there were games reviews in one general computing magazine and you have a list of supported computers at the end of each review - they always remembered to point that the Amiga is supported and Atari ST was rarely mentioned. It was usually mentioned, when the game was dedicated to Atari ST and was a kind of crap. Maybe they have some extra money from Amiga distributor? Haha... I don't know. I remember, once uppon a time, someone wrote some letters (or made some phonecalls/wrote letters) and asked, why they are not writting that usually all the presented games are available on the ST? The answers were: 1) Because it's so hard to buy legal copy for ST (lol), but for Amiga it's really easy - which was a strange argument, because there was the same problem with C64 in my opinion, but this one was always mentioned ; 2) Because Atari ST is not too popular in Poland and nobody cares (which was definitely not true); 3) Becasue they can't check if the game is available, as they can't buy this version from the official distributor (strange, I saw, that usually there was an information about other platforms on the game box of my ST games... and I used to check, if the game is available on the box of my Amiga-fellow friend, when he has something interesting, to buy a copy for my ST); 4) They know the game is available for the ST, but they don't have any Atari ST in their workplace to check the version during the review, so they think it is fair (yeah! fair enough) not to mention there is Atari ST version. All these answers are total bullshit for me - but as I said, I was not to much interested in such magazines and I was buying others... more professional ;-)

And my opinion - it's about Ahle2 right now - he made some good marketing for Amiga, but he really tries to be honest. I think, that he made very good comparisions (maybe even first such good I've seen), but I'm not reading his additional explanations as I don't need them to make my own conclusions.

ST/STE are my BEAUTIES! That's all...

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby christos » Sat May 31, 2008 5:22 pm

Well it was a joke , I don't think they did it on purpose(still if they had ISO it would have been taken away from them). On the magazine issue, general home computing magazines would do the same thing here too. The reason being that it was easier to get screenshots from the amiga version of the game.
On the issue at hand here, I think he is trying to be fair as well, but as I would be if I were making these videos, he is biased and I feel he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does, especially about the ST. Loving a machine and knowing (coding) it are two different things. You could hate the Amiga and still be a great coder for it.
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Re: Paint program that can

Postby ROWBEARTOE » Sat May 31, 2008 6:41 pm

Wow- we seem to have got off topic? Hahaha. Very interesting reading. So far I like comparing Deluxe Paint 2 on the Amiga and Degas Elite on the ATari ST- Both were second generation paint programs and both were released in 1986. Both were specific to each ones hardware. Degas is faster in 640x200 than the Amiga was with Deluxe Paint 2. I just wanted to "test" a paint program that was written to take advantage of a hardware ST blitter which all Amiga programs could have been. Degas Elite did draw 7 to 8 times faster with the ST Blitter.

Thanks for letting me know Deluxe Paint on the ST doesn't take advantage of the Blitter. I hate EA at times, for their bias towards only Amiga, then only Sega Genesis, then only Sony PlayStation. Your game comparisons so remind me of Saturn versus PlayStation arguments. One thing in software that is almost always true- software writen for a specific machine is always better looking and playing then a program that comes out for several hardware around the same time. I was hoping DP on the ST would take advantage of ST hardware since it came out in 1990! 5 years after the 520ST!

Now, back to my search for one more paint program that lets me cut an entire screen then draw with it pixel by pixel. I wish Neocrhome allowed that- because when you cut a screen it moves it around way faster than Degas Elite or Deluxe Paint 2 on the Amiga. And I do like the Amiga as well- it's our 8-Bit Atari's big brother. Just look at those Amiga player missles it has (hahaha)

Thanks again everyone.

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby christos » Sat May 31, 2008 6:52 pm

Well, try crack art.
And yeah, getting off topic is a habit. Just be happy it was civil and interesting ;).
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Re: Paint program that can

Postby nativ » Sat May 31, 2008 7:02 pm

Hi,
Have you tried Neochrome Master?

I'm sure the block copy function is reasonably useful in that.
Canvas?
HyperPaint?
OCP Art Studio?

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby ROWBEARTOE » Sat May 31, 2008 8:36 pm

Well I tried just about every program on the webpage I was asked to check out. Crack art got me excited because it does offer the feature I'm looking for- BUT it doesn't use the Blitter chip, which translates into being much slower than Degas Elite with a Blitter- BUT it was faster than Degas Elite without the blitter chip turned on.

Neochrome Master (50hz only) doesn't let you draw with a block brush, only cut and paste. =(

Any other websites with differn't paint programs to try?

Thanks everyone.

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby ROWBEARTOE » Sat May 31, 2008 8:55 pm

Colorchrome had some nice block features, but doesn't give me the option of pixel by pixel, just the speed of the mouse, kind of like the stipple feature in Degas Elite. Degas Elite and Crackart let you take a block (which could be the entier screen) and draw a line from one point to another pixel by pixel. =) The search is still on. :(

Thanks for you help everyone.

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby darklight » Sat May 31, 2008 11:53 pm

Not sure about the screen as a brush feature, but Canvas definately took advantage of the blitter - the menus were much faster to draw when it was turned on.
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Re: Paint program that can

Postby ROWBEARTOE » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:47 am

Never mind- I'll just stick to what I have. The more I thought about it, the better it is to just compare those two paint programs- they both were 2nd generation and both from the same year (1986). Without the Blitter the Amiga was much faster, but with the ST Blitter, Degas Elite was on average 2 to 3 times faster than the Amiga in just about everything- vertical or horizontal scroll in 320x200 was about the only thing Amiga with Deluxe Paint matched.

I would still like a paint program that was made after the release of the ST blitter (1987) that took advantage of it. =) But for now, I'm going to get back to my project when time is available.

Thank you everyone.

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Re: Paint program that can

Postby christos » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:26 am

Basic misconception here. The ST blitter != Amiga blitter. The ST Blitter is a hardware materialisation of the Line-A vdi routines (and a bit more). Therefore any program that uses Line-A will use the blitter when available regardless of the time it was made.
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Re: Paint program that can

Postby Frank B » Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:15 am

ROWBEARTOE wrote:Never mind- I'll just stick to what I have. The more I thought about it, the better it is to just compare those two paint programs- they both were 2nd generation and both from the same year (1986). Without the Blitter the Amiga was much faster, but with the ST Blitter, Degas Elite was on average 2 to 3 times faster than the Amiga in just about everything- vertical or horizontal scroll in 320x200 was about the only thing Amiga with Deluxe Paint matched.

I would still like a paint program that was made after the release of the ST blitter (1987) that took advantage of it. =) But for now, I'm going to get back to my project when time is available.

Thank you everyone.


What about cyber paint 2? It uses the blitter directly without using the OS. I'd imagine magnification and hflipping a brush is much faster than on Amiga paint packages since the ST blitter has hardware support for this.

See http://darkphoenix.homeunix.org/~Frank/ ... caling.mp4 for an example of hardware scaling and hlfipping the screen on an STE.


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