Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

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Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Tue May 06, 2008 2:54 pm

http://dhs.nu/scene_partydl_outline_2008.php

On that page you can find them if you scroll down. Maybe we can discuss these pieces of art? Let's pretend we are viewing these in the National Gallery of Country X:

8Ball: I like this image, but I've seen it before somewhere. The style is very modern for the ST platform (which is good to see), but it doesn't do anything to push the limits of the 16 colour barrier. In fact, maybe it doesn't even use 16 colours? It looks like less. I would be impressed to see this image on C64 but on ST it didn't hold my interest. Minimalistic colour use would be great if the image was also minimalistic in style, but this is not the case in my opinion. However, this image would be nice in a collection of works by the artist (Spiny), but can't stand on its own.

Badetag: I looked at this image a few times, and each time I noticed and appreciated a new detail. The tree and water look great, and each seem to use a different painting and dithering technique. The artist (Zweckform) shows off some advanced skills in this regard. The rock faces are okay, but to the left of the tree the rocks look really lame. They look blobby and rushed to me. All of the facial expressions are great. I think the neutral look on the sheep's face is really funny, like he is just resigned to his fate. The shocked look on the bird is nice too but the bird and nest look like they were just stamped atop the image. Maybe the nest should have some shadow on the rock where it is sitting to add some depth? I just noticed the simplistic birds in the sky now. It was a nice way to add visual interest to an otherwise empty blue void, without resorting to some needless dithering pixels.

Anyway, I know I'm very critical but I really liked both the images. I think I'll compete in the graphics comp next year at Outline so people can be harsh to me too. Until then, let's hear everyone's feedback about this year's graphic releases! I hope the artist's themselves will toss in their 2 cents...

>PS: Sorry for not embedding the images but I'm tired after typing this stuff...
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby StickHead » Tue May 06, 2008 9:59 pm

Image
bullis is right, this does not push the palette limits of the ST, but a picture does not have to do this to be interesting. It's a nice bit of line work, a very interesting character in a striking pose. If this is entirely original and not copied then I am impressed. Shading is minimal, but then any extra shading may compromise the 'cell animated' feel of the pic. The only improvement I would suggest is some more work on the number 8, just to make it a little more regular.

Image
I like the concept, really made me chuckle! Poor sheep! I echo Bullis' comments: The rocks on the left don't have the same quality of those on the right. Also, the water is great! Really brings to mind old Japanese woodcut prints, like those of Hokusai (link). I would have used less highlights on the left side of the tree (more like the bottom) to give the impression of depth, consistency of light sourcing is really important!

Great stuff! Lovely to see people still pixelling on the ST and sharing!
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Wed May 07, 2008 1:01 pm

StickHead wrote:bullis is right, this does not push the palette limits of the ST, but a picture does not have to do this to be interesting. It's a nice bit of line work, a very interesting character in a striking pose. If this is entirely original and not copied then I am impressed...


I don't think he copied the picture from elsewhere, but I think this is an older picture (maybe unfinished previously) that he decided to submit. I've seen it on DHS or Atari-Forum I'm pretty sure.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions! This thread has many views and few posts so far. I hope everybody at least looked at the nice artwork. Tell us what you think!
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby spiny » Wed May 07, 2008 2:03 pm

I've posted that image on b3ta.com but I don't think I posted it here before ?

it is only about six colours, but I like drawing like that, I'm still learning :D

doing stuff in a few colours just pleases me:

Image

my entry to the Pre Millenium Party from way back in '99
Image

image for a DHS compo from a few years ago:

Image

Also, I was drawn from scratch on an atari, the only time it saw a pc was when I uploaded it (it was a remote entry)
It's not a copy as such, but it's not 100% original either :)

anyway, thanks for the comments - I really enjoy pixelling - I have a few more images finished that might get released in an actual demo, this year! if I can hassle the other people in TMT enough that is :)

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby spiny » Wed May 07, 2008 2:07 pm

oh, and does anyone know when the rest of the images will be uploaded ?

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Wed May 07, 2008 2:27 pm

Ah, hello spiny! Good to see you in this thread. Unfortunately I have heard no mention yet on DHS about the upload of more images. I'm waiting patiently...

Also, I would like to say that the image you posted between the cat and the bloody face is one of my favourite ST images. The demo it was in was only okay, but that one picture became burned into my memory (my brain, not my Atari's memory!). It really evoked a lot of emotion in me but I can't put my finger on which emotion that is... Anyway thanks for your works so far and I hope we see more form you in the future.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby spiny » Wed May 07, 2008 2:41 pm

I made it into a tshirt :)


Image

Image

glad you like it though!

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Wed May 07, 2008 3:13 pm

Well I hope you enjoy wearing it then :mrgreen: I would also like that on a shirt, but a different type of shirt I think. Anyway, that's totally off topic right now.

Do you have any opinions on your "competitor's" art in this thread spiny?
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby StickHead » Wed May 07, 2008 3:26 pm

Nice stuff Spiny. Anybody who pixels on old machines HAS to enjoy limited colours, or go insane! Spiny just takes it to a new level :wink: all art either struggles against the limitations of the medium or sits happily inside them. Both disciplines produce interesting dilemmas and decisions resulting in interesting work.

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby spiny » Wed May 07, 2008 4:31 pm

bullis1 wrote:Do you have any opinions on your "competitor's" art in this thread spiny?


the winning pic is far and away better than anything i've ever done :) I've never managed to get the hang of dithering :)

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby p01 » Thu May 08, 2008 8:38 pm

Here's the pic I presented at Outline 2oo8.

Image

It's a paint over job I started 2-3 years ago. There's still some areas I don't really like but all in all I'm rather happy with the style, composition and pixel love ( aka dithering ). As usual the dithering contains quite a few gizmos : hearts, stars, space invaders, robot from Berzek, ghost from pacman, ...

Comments and critique are highly appreciated.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby spiny » Fri May 09, 2008 8:20 am

p01 wrote:Here's the pic I presented at Outline 2oo8.

Image

It's a paint over job I started 2-3 years ago. There's still some areas I don't really like but all in all I'm rather happy with the style, composition and pixel love ( aka dithering ). As usual the dithering contains quite a few gizmos : hearts, stars, space invaders, robot from Berzek, ghost from pacman, ...

Comments and critique are highly appreciated.



nice :D I -really- should practice dithering.

by 'paint over' do you mean you started with a scanned image ?

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby simonsunnyboy » Fri May 09, 2008 8:53 am

Really nice - how about doing an introductory tutorial on pixeling? Maybe we can gather more artists that way or (at least) improve coder's graphics ;)
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby p01 » Fri May 09, 2008 9:48 am

spiny: Thanks.

I started with a pic I found on the net. Unfortunately I lost the original in the course of various re-install in the last 2-3 years. There was some scaling and a bit of color/contrast correction/posterize then it's all about having a window at 100% ( to see the result ) and one at 1600% ( to work on ) in fullscreen in PhotoShop to do all the dithering, correction of weird highlights/shadows/shapes/...

Paint over jobs may sound cheap and quick but doing a good one is not trivial. But it saves a bit of time by skipping the sketching part.

FWIW the face itself is in 7 colors, there's 3 shades of red + ~5 grey/white pink for the AA ( pbly too much )
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Fri May 09, 2008 1:31 pm

Here's my critique (whether it was invited or not):

While you probably did use too many shades for the blending between grey/red (as it doesn't really show) it's a nice image. I have to ask though, did you intend to use this image elsewhere? It seems like it was made to accommodate a demo effect or block of text on the left side. The look that the man is giving is one of someone who is suspicious of the viewer. It's a good subject because it plays with the theme of the relationship between the patron and the work. The pixelling is excellent and there's a lot of subtlety in both the shading done and the mini-art that can be found. These sort of things make it exciting to revisit the image as you may find something new. And while I know from personal experience that paint-overs are not easy, I can't give points for originality. In fact, I think I have stumbled across this source image before somewhere as it immediately gave me a feeling of familiarity. This is an exceptional rendition however. Even though it's not fully my taste I can very much appreciate the technique. What it lacks in use of colour palette it makes up for in shading. However, have you ever looked at this image on an ST? I ask because you mention that you made it on PC and often 16 colour images from PC look wrong on the ST's 512 colour palette.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby spiny » Fri May 09, 2008 1:42 pm

p01 wrote:spiny: Thanks.

I started with a pic I found on the net. Unfortunately I lost the original in the course of various re-install in the last 2-3 years. There was some scaling and a bit of color/contrast correction/posterize then it's all about having a window at 100% ( to see the result ) and one at 1600% ( to work on ) in fullscreen in PhotoShop to do all the dithering, correction of weird highlights/shadows/shapes/...

Paint over jobs may sound cheap and quick but doing a good one is not trivial. But it saves a bit of time by skipping the sketching part.

FWIW the face itself is in 7 colors, there's 3 shades of red + ~5 grey/white pink for the AA ( pbly too much )



neat :)

I haven't played around with doing a pic on the PC first then importing it into Neochrome / Degas - it always seems like 'cheating' somehow :D :D

I will admit to doing it with text though, so much easier than pixelling a font :)

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Fri May 09, 2008 1:52 pm

spiny wrote:I haven't played around with doing a pic on the PC first then importing it into Neochrome / Degas - it always seems like 'cheating' somehow :D :D


I agree usually but since this was a "16 colour pixel" competition and not a "16 colour Atari ST pixel" competition I didn't take that into consideration. I wasn't at Outline though so maybe it was for Atari ST graphics and I just didn't notice that printed on the result sheet. As far as I know the competition was open to any 16 colour image.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby ZWF/Paradox » Sat May 10, 2008 6:25 am

Hi,

bullis1 wrote:http://dhs.nu/scene_partydl_outline_2008.php
The rock faces are okay, but to the left of the tree the rocks look really lame. They look blobby and rushed to me.


I wonder if you noticed the rocks on the left form two faces. Anyway its right, the ones on the right are better and the nest is not integrated very well. This will be improved, as soon as i have a solution and the time for this.

Thanks to all for your kind words.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby p01 » Sat May 10, 2008 12:01 pm

spiny+bullis1: It's really easy to match the limitations of an STf/e in PhotoShop. I believe the compo was for STe. Anyway I made my image for STf and submitted it in PI1 and GIF. To me PhotoShop is just another tool. I've used Degas and Deluxe Paint for years ( never got into NeoChrome ). When pushing pixels I pretty much use PS the way I used DPaint : a view magnified 8x or 16x and a control view at 1x. I could "roll back" to DPaint but PS is more convenient and I know the keyboard shortcuts by heart. Actually if I were to pixel on ST I'd probably end up making my own paint program, as I did on Falcon.

FWIW, at Outline, whenever someone spoke to me as I was working on the pic, I told them right away it was a paint over job. I want to enter an original pic one day. It's just a matter of time.

ZWF: did you do your pic entirely using an ST paint program ? Great Happy happy joy pic. Drawing water is a pain in the neck. Good use of funky dithering. Only mishaps I see are some AA and contrast issues here and there. But really cool piece.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby ZWF/Paradox » Sat May 10, 2008 2:59 pm

Hello,

p01:i did the tree, the rocks on the right and the first version of the water in Dpaint ST. Then i changed to Promotion as i can work faster with it and time is rare for things like that in my life.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Mon May 12, 2008 1:28 pm

ZWF/Paradox wrote:Hi,
...
I wonder if you noticed the rocks on the left form two faces. Anyway its right, the ones on the right are better and the nest is not integrated very well. This will be improved, as soon as i have a solution and the time for this.
Thanks to all for your kind words.


I thought I saw a face or two in the rocks, but I wasn't sure they were supposed to be like that. Now that you confirm it I can say it's a nice touch. They still need a bit of work though.

Also, you mentioned that you used Deluxe Paint ST. Good choice! It's my favourite graphics program on ST. I've read the manual cover-to-cover several times :coffe:
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby ZWF/Paradox » Wed May 14, 2008 6:45 pm

Hello,

bullis1 wrote:Also, you mentioned that you used Deluxe Paint ST. Good choice! It's my favourite graphics program on ST. I've read the manual cover-to-cover several times :coffe:



I prefer its workflow to any other ST painter, but i miss some features like the raster trick in NeoChrome. For me, the most important tool is the magnifying glas. The one in DeluxePaint is just what i need.
Before i ran out of Atari time i used to work on my Mega/STE i liked the retro feeling very much. As i mentioned before, now my pixels are done in Promotion on PC to speed things up. Not the same for sure but effective when it comes to results. Hope one day there is time for the old way again.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby bullis1 » Wed May 14, 2008 7:00 pm

Aside from the good magnifier, one of my favourite features in DPaint ST is the huge amount of different buffers it gives you. It's the next best thing to having layers like in photoshop. There are also alot of good options/tricks for saving memory and filesize.
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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby havoc » Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:35 pm

hmm call me a heretic if you like but...

pc pixel paint progs like for example promotion easily outperform any atari lowres paintprog i can think of... you can scale back to the exact ST or STE palette if you like (just select 3 or 4bit per colour channel), do this before you start painting and you're guaranteed not to have any color conversion issues whatsoever.

put a prog like promotion alongside photoshop and a tablet, the result is an atari graphician's wet dream :)

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Re: Two new 16-colour images from Outline 2008...

Postby mic » Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:32 pm

Promotion is the best program on pc when it comes to pixel pushing (never liked photoshop for that) and I find myself easier to generate ST pictures with it than using the old ST programs.


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