Quake 2 on Falcon030

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dml
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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:13 pm

Ok the 'side project' has been mostly completed and it's going off to STNICCC soon, with any luck. I can take another look at the Q2 thing and other stuff after the holidays...

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dhedberg » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:35 pm

dml wrote:Ok the 'side project' has been mostly completed and it's going off to STNICCC soon, with any luck. I can take another look at the Q2 thing and other stuff after the holidays...

Ah, that sounds exciting! I'm going to STNICCC as well! Hope to see you there!
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby EvilFranky » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:36 pm

Good news, I've missed the updates Doug.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby CiH » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:21 pm

Side project - STNICCC, mmm!
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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:36 pm

Ok it was a rather complicated, lengthy 'side project' but it fell out of doing the other thing there ^ :-D

Unfortunately I won't attend - if it had been in January I could make it but family travel plans collided... :-/

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby neo_rg » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:43 pm

Results of this little side project can be seen here...
https://youtu.be/K9vUfsZ3eiY

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby jvas » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:11 pm

Awesome!!!

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:21 pm

Thanks guys. We're packing for travel and my ISP has completely crapped out over the weekend so I haven't even seen the other entries yet. I have heard they are pretty special - so hopefully that will have been sorted by tomorrow!

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby DrTypo » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:43 pm

Incredible stuff!
You did hint at a fast raytracer. I was wondering if it meant a real-time raytracer.
With POV-Ray, even a simple scene at 80*50 without all the details enabled takes a minute or two.
To get someting in real-time would imply a couple of orders of magnitude speed-up. For sure this can't be.
It turns out it can be.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby troed » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:14 pm

It was absolutely stunning to see, Doug! Awesome display of your Falcon-bending skills.

/Troed

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby CiH » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:16 pm

From someone at the party. Super giga awesome to the power of ten!
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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:42 am

Thanks everyone!

DrTypo wrote:You did hint at a fast raytracer. I was wondering if it meant a real-time raytracer.
With POV-Ray, even a simple scene at 80*50 without all the details enabled takes a minute or two.
To get someting in real-time would imply a couple of orders of magnitude speed-up. For sure this can't be.
It turns out it can be.


Yeah its a type of RTRT. A hybrid mixture of methods to keep speed sensible. I had considered using Q2-engine derived stuff (and polygons) for the demo - I think that might have been expected - but decided RTRT would be more interesting to try + something new to look at.

I had started this quite some time ago and couldn't make it work sensibly because sqrt(x) is very difficult to avoid and was too slow. There are some roundabout ways to avoid it for normalizing camera rays but there are other consequences and results aren't very good. And it's needed for spheres and curved surfaces anyway.

So once I had sqrt(x), 1/sqrt(x) and 1/x figured out, it became much more doable.

Composing a complete frame at any sensible resolution is still super-expensive so I started using distributed samples combined with updating the camera at a highish framerate, keeping the camera motion as slow as possible. There are a lot of other tricks inside the renderer to terminate rays wherever possible. Only some of the objects are self-shadowing with actual shadow rays - most use ambient occlusion which is relatively quick to estimate in a distance field.

The most expensive scene is probably the gallery, which contains quite a few objects and represents a complex distance field. There are a *lot* of rays bouncing around in there. This was a total headache to move in realtime, so it runs mainly with the CRT effect, with really big pixel cells. Falcon can just about keep up :)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dhedberg » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:07 pm

That's how to kick-start a demo competition! Your entry was the first one and blew me away! Outstanding demo with great music by XiA! Thanks for sending it in Doug!
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:31 pm

Thanks for the comments Daniel, Troed, CiH! I was just extra happy that the demo made it into the party.

Troed: I caught your {closure} demo today. Pretty crazy stuff happening there :-P and with really thumping music... (haven't had time to view the talk but it's downloading for later)

AxisOxy (if you're still reading) - that was very impressive!


...Leonard/Oxygene's demo was quite scary wasn't it? :-)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby troed » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:41 pm

dml wrote:Troed: I caught your {closure} demo today. Pretty crazy stuff happening there :-P and with really thumping music... (haven't had time to view the talk but it's downloading for later)


(We're somewhat derailing your thread but maybe that's ok for the days just after a STNICCC .. they don't come around that often ;))

Cheers! Yeah the day after the demo competition I got a lot of questions on how the effects in {closure} are created on a bog standard ST :) And 7an will love your comment on his music (.sndh can be found here: http://demozoo.org/productions/151630/)

I hope you'll enjoy the talk as well. Having Gunstick and ES in the audience cleared up a few things, and afterwards I got to discuss some other unresolved questions with Ilja/L16 :)

While I will never (promise to my family) take on another demo deadline again, your work is really really inspiring me to maybe get a Falcon again after 22 years ...

/Troed

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby jvas » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:02 pm

It seems it doesn't work with accelerated DSP and sound file removed. There is garbage on the screen instead of graphics. The bus speed is original, just the DSP is accelerated. Doom and quake works fine this combination....

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:39 pm

jvas wrote:It seems it doesn't work with accelerated DSP and sound file removed. There is garbage on the screen instead of graphics. The bus speed is original, just the DSP is accelerated. Doom and quake works fine this combination....


That's weird. I'd expect it to work with a faster DSP. I'll investigate.

Make sure you do keep the .irm files - those tables are needed for the math and you'll get garbage without them. Removing .s16 audio track shouldn't cause a problem for the demo though - it should just run silently. I tested this accidentally before submitting. :D

I've got a bit of time free over new year so I can take a look then.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby tin » Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:04 am

@dml: I did fall off a chair twice at STNICCC: first at the compo when seeing this, and second when havoc showed me afterwards that it is only 64k (w/o music). Very nice work.

@troed: I still suspect a big glowing hump of magic inside your machine. That would explain why you refused to open it :)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:17 am

tin wrote:@dml: I did fall off a chair twice at STNICCC: first at the compo when seeing this, and second when havoc showed me afterwards that it is only 64k (w/o music). Very nice work.


:D cheers!

I'm glad there were Falcon people in the audience to see it. It was a very oldskool-ST kind of event so it was great they were interested in supporting Falcon, esp. for a single demo. The hardware hassle factor alone is enough.

Well I got quite sloppy with the code esp. towards the end when I realized the 'small' music option would be neither finished nor good enough in time, which put a fork in the sizecoding aspect of things. Just as well really - XiA's track was much better than what I had done.

I think somebody on a mission there could have got the program file under 32k packed, or 80k with the tables rolled in. The 48k of tables is 25% waste as it is - 24bit words stored in 32bit format. I didn't try packing them due to being in a rush but probably they would save something. I guess it would have been about 80k all-in.

I'll return to this stuff another time with a bit more focus and no deadline-cramming! v. happy that it went down well at the show...

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby tat » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:36 am

troed wrote:It was absolutely stunning to see, Doug! Awesome display of your Falcon-bending skills.

/Troed


+1 Excellent stuff, Doug!

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby Anima » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:37 am

8O Awesome stuff Doug.
:cheers:


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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby EvilFranky » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:07 am

Pushing the boundaries yet again Doug.

Congrats, great demo!

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:21 pm

I (and Hatari) have had "Doug's stuff" withdrawal symptoms for a while, so this hit the spot... :-)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Wed Dec 23, 2015 6:38 pm

Thanks guys. Stay tuned :)


BTW Eero - I found a really strange effect with Hatari will working on the code. I can use either the DSP or audio and get decent performance. But with both running together, performance nose-dives like crazy. On my machine it almost crawls to a halt. Towards the end I was using real HW almost exclusively because of this.

Might be an interesting exercise for somebody to push Hatari through a profiler some day while running different demos to see whats actually going on (?) or if that's been tried already - repeat with this particular demo as a worst-case.

If I can manage a mingw build of Hatari I may try it here but I may not get the needed time for a while...


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