Quake 2 on Falcon030

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Thu May 14, 2015 3:41 pm

calimero wrote:btw plz upload 3# long version to youtube ;)


One of the reasons I decided against uploading the long version (or, 2nd part of the 2-part vid) is the fact that some of the material in there actually *depends* on enabling TT-ram to load/run at all. i.e. they would not fit in 14MB, and would probably be difficult even after optimizing the loader properly and fixing other related issues.

All of the vids use some sleight-of-hand to hide various transitional problems (sparkles, temporary flatshading, late texture paging etc.) but these are all at least fixable/improvable things which aren't fundamentally limiting. But I decided to draw the line at the last part because I can't really see it fitting on a stock Falcon and it would be misleading. Therefore abandoned :)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dma » Thu May 14, 2015 3:58 pm

Indeed the most advanced 3D rendering engine seen on stock Falcon.
Congrats once again Doug.

Most amazing would be to have it runnable on a 4mb RAM machine (like with specific maps and reduced textures set).
A multi-players only game in this form would redefine Falcon entertainment. :)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Thu May 14, 2015 4:06 pm

dma wrote:Most amazing would be to have it runnable on a 4mb RAM machine (like with specific maps and reduced textures set).
A multi-players only game in this form would redefine Falcon entertainment. :)


Thanks dma!

In fact it may not be so difficult to put out *something* that will run on 4MB (plus FPU mind! for the non-drawing engine code). But as you say, it would need to be deliberately crafted so.

If it was cut down to a baked demo sequence with no interaction, the FPU could go away as well.

Low res and/or very few textures, no sky textures, minimize framebuffer footprint, minimize surface cache - maybe even switch back to 8bit surfaces at some cost to pixel drawing speed, optimize temporary memory usage while loading, custom map... etc. but ultimately doable. Might try it sometime, seems like a worthwhile challenge :)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dma » Thu May 14, 2015 4:13 pm

Eheh, in a demo form that would just be ultimate material for a demo-party... like this year's (decade's) STNICCC, for example. ;)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dhedberg » Thu May 14, 2015 5:32 pm

dma wrote:Eheh, in a demo form that would just be ultimate material for a demo-party... like this year's (decade's) STNICCC, for example. ;)

That was my thought exactly yesterday when I watched the Youtube clip. Doug, what you've accomplished on the Falcon030 is astounding. Are you going to STNICCC? It's worth considering! Regardless, you're in possession of the best 3d engine ever developed on the Falcon030. A demo using it could easily become one of the best demos ever released for the Falcon030. Did I mention that I love watching great demos! :-)
Daniel, New Beat - http://newbeat.atari.org. Like demos? Have a look at our new Falcon030 demo and feel the JOY.

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Postby EvilFranky » Thu May 14, 2015 7:05 pm

Hi Doug, still on holiday in Thailand but just catching up at the moment. Absolutely incredible. There's nothing I could say that others haven't. But it is literally the greatest piece of Falcon030 3D programming ever! Congrats!!

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Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby EvilFranky » Thu May 14, 2015 7:07 pm

Image

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Postby EvilFranky » Thu May 14, 2015 7:07 pm

I'm guessing he'd like BadMood too!

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Thu May 14, 2015 7:16 pm

Well all of that together just made my day/month/year. :)

Daniel & dma - taking your input seriously. I don't have a great track record for sticking to a plan when it comes to demos and deadlines (and not getting sidetracked) but if I can find a way to do something I'll try.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby charliesgames » Fri May 15, 2015 6:32 am

This is really super cool!

The stuff i write these day is for systems where the difficulty is working out APIs rather than any actual complexity, so it's pretty inspiring to see you pushing the falcon like this! Perhaps i'll install devpac on my ST on of these days....

Hi everyone, by the way. I signed up a little while ago so i could see the pictures here.

Cheers
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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Fri May 15, 2015 8:59 am

Hi! welcome onboard :) and thanks..

charliesgames wrote:The stuff i write these day is for systems where the difficulty is working out APIs rather than any actual complexity, so it's pretty inspiring to see you pushing the falcon like this! Perhaps i'll install devpac on my ST on of these days....

Hi everyone, by the way. I signed up a little while ago so i could see the pictures here.


Yes indeed - I watched the whole middle(under)ware(!) and hardware thing happen under my feet, and understand quite well what you speak of. A lot of the people hanging around here were making stuff during a time when APIs (or internet!) didn't really exist yet :)

Not that I have anything against APIs - they are super productive. But detailed performance work is fun :)

One of the things I discovered on my voyage is just how much of JC's detailed work and decision making in those earlier engines goes unnoticed. It gets copied/edited/chopped up/deleted for the sake of forks and ports and new hardware & APIs which have different performance characteristics. Quite often you'll see advice on 'delete this' 'remove that' 'it will run faster without stage X' etc.. But the significance of the stuff being sidestepped goes kind of unappreciated, partly because much of it was targeting a machine without 3D hardware and few people understand/remember what those problems actually looked like. Of course I ran into all of those problems tenfold :-) so while not all of JC's decisions were obvious at first, I did have to make sense of each before deciding if something was important or not for representing the BSP world on a Falcon. I explicitly avoided using any code that I didn't write myself or at least fully understand before grafting in (at least, for the renderer - the game/object layer being used was only lightly edited where needed).

There were a few things I did know before I started - which helped me to decide IdTech 2 had some good properties which might fit on a Falcon - but a lot of the details had to be figured out on the way.


(BTW I should now direct your attention to the X68000 project for Falcon, which you'll find elsewhere on this Forum - and 'Racer 2'. There are plenty of other things going on but those are definitely worth a look)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby charliesgames » Fri May 15, 2015 9:18 am

dml wrote:dml wrote stuff...


Thanks for the welcome.

I've seen a couple of videos of Cho Ren Sha, very cool!

I've seen some of Carmack's quake3 code, very neat, especially the fast inverse square root function. I understand he didn't find the magic number himself, but was the first to use it in a game. There's lots of clever stuff in there!

APIs are super handy, though in a lot of cases (especially recently working with consoles) i tend to find myself working out what a specific bit will do, and writing my own version in C. Easier to debug and usually goes faster due to less overhead. One of the things that really annoys me with these is flaky documentation, especially if you're required to pass in structs etc. where not every member needs to be assigned in every case. Drives me potty!

I guess it's easy to feel spoiled with modern hardware too. knowing you'll pretty much never run out of memory (even video memory!) is quite cool! Even the difference in the last 10 years has been fairly striking.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing you get the rest of the game in there ;)

Cheers
Charlie
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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Fri May 15, 2015 3:28 pm

Well I did finish the 4th vid last night (it's not that long), converted it earlier today and its uploaded now.

Disclaimer: If you're a long term Amiga 1200 fan (the old Falcon nemesis!!!), you might want to grab a chair.

:twisted:

https://youtu.be/jjgWx3DE1CY

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Postby EvilFranky » Fri May 15, 2015 4:37 pm

Amazing Doug!

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby DrTypo » Fri May 15, 2015 4:59 pm

I'm playing with UE4 theses days and this reminds me of the kind of stuff you can do with UE4, using Global Illumination.
That's beautiful.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby LaurentS » Fri May 15, 2015 5:56 pm

> Disclaimer: If you're a long term Amiga 1200 fan (the old Falcon nemesis!!!), you might want to grab a chair.
:twisted:

Errr, I've never been an Amiga fan, but I had to grab a chair anyway.

You really should do a demo and a game with this code, it's so amasing (does it really run on a standard Falcon ? ;)

It's really impressive, and it seems this engine allows a lot of possibilities.

Sometimes, it reminds me Minecraft in the 4th video ;)

Great, great !
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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Fri May 15, 2015 7:11 pm

LaurentS wrote:You really should do a demo and a game with this code, it's so amasing (does it really run on a standard Falcon ? ;)
It's really impressive, and it seems this engine allows a lot of possibilities.


Well I do have to hide a number of problems in those videos - mostly textures appearing late - the maps need 'exercised' carefully before showing. But I keep working on these problems, and have a few ideas to deal with that still... but yes :) I'd be in deep trouble if it doesn't run on a Falcon! :D

I had some bug reports already with a test build (one really impressive bug - how did it ever work?) but generally it seems to be going ok...

LaurentS wrote:Sometimes, it reminds me Minecraft in the 4th video ;)


haha! maybe it was your idea :)

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby CiH » Sat May 16, 2015 8:39 am

Most amazing would be to have it runnable on a 4mb RAM machine (like with specific maps and reduced textures set).
A multi-players only game in this form would redefine Falcon entertainment. :)


Nice suggestion, but another part of me would also like to see some sort of a demo with the max lighting and textures possible on a real live machine from an executable that the rest of us can run as well. This may need to be done at some stage, if only to silence those people (especially in the Am*ga camp) who might say "It's only a video and the best bits are down to good editing skills." 8)
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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby GokMasE » Sat May 16, 2015 8:47 am

After watching the recent YT uploads I have to say that apart from the normal awesomeness applied, the lighting and skybox really, really makes these ones shine! :D
I haven't seen anything remotely similar to this on equivalent hardware, so hats off to you Doug!

This project is virtually insane but in the best sense of the word :cheers:


Regards,

/Joakim

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Sat May 16, 2015 8:51 am

CiH wrote:Nice suggestion, but another part of me would also like to see some sort of a demo with the max lighting and textures possible on a real live machine from an executable that the rest of us can run as well. This may need to be done at some stage, if only to silence those people (especially in the Am*ga camp) who might say "It's only a video and the best bits are down to good editing skills." 8)


:D yes an executable is due. In fact a couple of people here are testing a version for me right now. And the bugs are flying in :)

It's still just a viewer in its current state and pretty raw - whereas the videos are 'produced' with a lot of cutting and prep beforehand (no post production of course - just plenty of chopping up!). Fiddling values, rebuilding code etc. But I'm working to get it in a flexible state for playing with, minus the youtube component :)

BTW I can say however that there is no precalc or data-pre-capture cheating involved with running the sequences - they are captured from Hatari live while 'playing' the viewer with keyboard and mouse. There is no opportunity to precalculate anything except the tables for various 3D & shading problems in the engine itself.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Sat May 16, 2015 1:11 pm

GokMasE wrote:After watching the recent YT uploads I have to say that apart from the normal awesomeness applied, the lighting and skybox really, really makes these ones shine! :D
I haven't seen anything remotely similar to this on equivalent hardware, so hats off to you Doug!


Thanks a lot - appreciated!


BTW something I didn't mention about the skies - while some are existing Quake3 or DM map textures, one of the skies I used is a custom map generated with POVRay using PCM's sky environment generator (another ex-PixelTwin).

I'll make this tool available with the engine, so anyone handy with POVRay can generate unique truecolour skies for the engine - even do it on a Falcon if you wish. Without that, you've got a lot of photoshopping ahead otherwise :D

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby kristjanga » Sun May 17, 2015 7:03 pm

WOW 8O
This needs to be made into somthing playable.
When I watch your last video Doug I see some kind of flight / space game.
Perhabs some atari code maniacs would like to help with game logic / ai and what not? Think about it, a new game from scratch based on this engine, I know I would buy it any day, and I guess others would do it also.

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby hencox » Sun May 17, 2015 7:38 pm

This is simply amazing, Doug! 8O Like some people have pointed out already, your engine would really be interesting to use for games and demos. I've been fiddling around with making my own isometric 3D game by generating static bitmaps in four directions of the 3D objects I've created in Blender, but if I could use your engine instead it would be so cool. :mrgreen:
A few questions (sorry if they were already answered somewhere on the other 30 pages):
1) Does your engine require feeding it WAD-files for all the graphics data or can I do it in my own special way?
2) Does the engine support a total of two texture layers, or perhaps a layer with a constant colour and a texture layer on top of that? I'm currently using a base colour and on top of that a semi-transparent texture layer generated by Blender to give the illusion of ambient occlusion. Looks really nice for rocks etc, so my conclusion is that the ambient occlusion texture layer is more important than the base texture.

Keep up the great work!
/Henrik

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Sun May 17, 2015 7:38 pm

kristjanga wrote:WOW 8O
This needs to be made into somthing playable.
When I watch your last video Doug I see some kind of flight / space game.
Perhabs some atari code maniacs would like to help with game logic / ai and what not? Think about it, a new game from scratch based on this engine, I know I would buy it any day, and I guess others would do it also.


Thanks for the suggestions. I certainly hope to do something more for the Atari platform, but there are still some things I need to build to get what I'm looking for. Getting there gradually.

I will get a demo of this out to play with meantime though.


I want to mention that DrTypo has been able to produce a decent test map for the Falcon build in an astonishingly short span of time - couple of days of intermittent work (maybe a lot less, but not more), and was able to exercise quite a few features at once, despite the various limitations I haven't sorted out yet. Completely his choice if he wants to show any bits of that test - but for me it's significant if others can get such results with the engine using the same or similar tools.

It's certainly not a breeze to make maps and benefits a huge amount from general modelling and artistic ability (and patience) so a big thanks to him for putting effort into that!

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Re: Quake 2 on Falcon030

Postby dml » Sun May 17, 2015 8:15 pm

Hi Henrik,

Thanks! Have only a few minutes free tonight so I'll answer you properly a bit later (nice questions!). But yes - I'll support any effort made to develop on the machine and of course will try to help if I can!

Cheers,
D

hencox wrote:This is simply amazing, Doug! 8O Like some people have pointed out already, your engine would really be interesting to use for games and demos. I've been fiddling around with making my own isometric 3D game by generating static bitmaps in four directions of the 3D objects I've created in Blender, but if I could use your engine instead it would be so cool. :mrgreen:
A few questions (sorry if they were already answered somewhere on the other 30 pages):
1) Does your engine require feeding it WAD-files for all the graphics data or can I do it in my own special way?
2) Does the engine support a total of two texture layers, or perhaps a layer with a constant colour and a texture layer on top of that? I'm currently using a base colour and on top of that a semi-transparent texture layer generated by Blender to give the illusion of ambient occlusion. Looks really nice for rocks etc, so my conclusion is that the ambient occlusion texture layer is more important than the base texture.

Keep up the great work!
/Henrik


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