Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

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Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby jonathanm » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:29 pm

Hi! I just noticed that Hatari has been updated so that it runs in Falcon030 mode, something which I have been keen to see completed for a long time. It's been a very long time since I owned an Atari Falcon030 (it was a stock system with internal HDD and also an external HDD, run with a multi-sync monitor) so much of the wisdom of desktop configuration, HDD config etc is just a vague shadow of a memory, however I might still have most of the stuff on floppy disks in my vaults, the guy who I sold the Falcon to wasn't interested in them.

Could someone please point me in the right direction of how to set up Hatari so that it looks and runs more or less like my stock Falcon did please? What things would I need to put on the HDD for the nice desktop icons that I had, and how can I get sound to work (so far I have got a demo - 1st Demo by MickMouse - and a game - Conquest of Elysium - to run but both without sound).

I currently have a folder set up as my HDD which I use with Hatari in ST/STE mode, so probably wouldn't want to mess that up with a load of Falcon stuff; is there a way to select which folder to use based on whether Hatari is in ST or Falcon mode, or is it just a case of manually changing the HDD folder each time I change mode? Can Hatari read HDD images, and if so what format? I don't have the original internal boot HDD image but I do still have my external SCSI HDD, many years ago I took a raw image of it using a unix machine but don't seem to be able to find that image now, could probably do this again.

Thanks for any advice!


UPDATE: At the time of writing this post I was running a pre-compiled version of Hatari 2.0.0 on Mac OS High Sierra 10.13.2, have just now run the same version pre-compiled for Windows64 and have sound (plus a lot more CPU power in the PC, my i5 iMac is almost ten years old now). Great to hear the MickMouse tune again!

UPDATE 2: I found my C drive backup floppies (from the days when that was still feasible!), copied the contents to a folder and set that as the Hatari boot hard drive, worked like a charm. Now to try to get that in a proper HDD image file, and recover the rest of my HDD contents.

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby ThorstenOtto » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm

jonathanm wrote:is there a way to select which folder to use based on whether Hatari is in ST or Falcon mode, or is it just a case of manually changing the HDD folder each time I change mode?


The easiest way is probably to prepare different configuration files, store them under different names, and start up hatari by specifying --configfile on the commandline (on windows you can achieve that by creating links on the desktop, and adding the switches/arguments to the target path in the properties).

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:47 pm

I would recommend using Hatari development versions instead of Hatari v2.0, if you can build your own Hatari binary.

Take a look at the number of fixed Falcon games and (especially) demos, there have been significant emulation improvements since 2.0 release:
https://hg.tuxfamily.org/mercurialroot/ ... -notes.txt

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby alexh » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:38 am

Some people have in the past complained the automated builds of the Windows Hatari development versions can have issues but..... they are available

http://antarctica.no/~hatari/latest/

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Marakatti » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:22 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:Take a look at the number of fixed Falcon games and (especially) demos, there have been significant emulation improvements since 2.0 release:
https://hg.tuxfamily.org/mercurialroot/ ... -notes.txt


I've also updated our game archive a few months ago using Hatari 2.0 Falcon030 emulation. Basically all Falcon game screenshots were taken using Hatari 2.0. It also shows how great the compatibility is nowadays. Only thing i miss is the multiple buttons emulation of the Jagpad as it's essential for many Falcon games.

Many thanks for the whole Hatari team :cheers:

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Foxie » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:23 pm

Marakatti wrote:Only thing i miss is the multiple buttons emulation of the Jagpad as it's essential for many Falcon games.


I ran into this problem too when trying to write code to support the Jagpad. Steem also has incomplete support - it allows you to map the keys but it ignores writes to the latch register.

One thing that does seem to be missing from the Falcon emulation is support for rasters. In fact it fails whenever you increase the CPU speed beyond 8MHz. It looks like Hatari's cycle-accurate emulation only applies to 8MHz.

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:19 pm

Marakatti wrote:Only thing i miss is the multiple buttons emulation of the Jagpad as it's essential for many Falcon games


Can you give an example? There are few Falcon games that require (STE) gamepad, but Hatari's emulation of that has been enough for everything I've come across.

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:27 pm

Foxie wrote:One thing that does seem to be missing from the Falcon emulation is support for rasters. In fact it fails whenever you increase the CPU speed beyond 8MHz. It looks like Hatari's cycle-accurate emulation only applies to 8MHz.


The issue with Falcon rasters isn't related to cycle accuracy, but Videl emulation. Unlike ST/STE emulation, Falcon emulation doesn't have any support for tracking palette change locations between VBLs, Videl emulation will just use current palette when it converts Falcon screen contents for host output on each VBL. I.e. there's no raster support in Videl emulation.

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Marakatti » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:13 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:
Marakatti wrote:Only thing i miss is the multiple buttons emulation of the Jagpad as it's essential for many Falcon games


Can you give an example? There are few Falcon games that require (STE) gamepad, but Hatari's emulation of that has been enough for everything I've come across.


Evolution Dino Dudes and LlamaZap for example. Basically they can't be played without multiple firebutton support. In fact every game that supports three firebuttons / numberkeypad would benefit from a complete Jagpad emulation. As far as i know only one of the three firebuttons is emulated.

Our database lists 170 entries with Jagpad support. It ofcourse lists all the different releases so the actual number of titles is not so big. But the controller still has a notable support for over 100 titles in Atari Falcon and STe gaming development.
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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:36 pm

Dino Dudes doesn't work with Hatari, but LLamaZap does. I never new that it supported multiple pad fire buttons, I've played it just with one. :-)

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Marakatti » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:28 pm

Eero Tamminen wrote:Dino Dudes doesn't work with Hatari, but LLamaZap does. I never new that it supported multiple pad fire buttons, I've played it just with one. :-)


I took these Dino Dudes screenshots using Hatari so it was very much working :) It's just impossible to play without full jagpad support.

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... 23151.html

In LlamaZap you need other buttons for boost, some manouvres and to choose different weapon and ship specific functions in testflight mode with jagpad numeric keypad.
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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:13 pm

Are there other games besides Dino Dudes, for which STE joypad isn't enough, they need the extra buttons provided by JagPads to be playable *at all*?

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Marakatti » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:52 am

I don't have any definite list but once you used JagPad for decades to play Falcon or STe games it's just so handy instead of playing with the keyboard.

For the games not playable at all i don't think there are many. You can control them at some degree but can't fully play or use the full features, and need to play with keyboard instead. Or as it's the case in the most Falcon games published by Atari, there's no choice but to use JagPad. A bit like trying to play Megadrive or Snes games with single button joystick.

For the games which has an enchanced playability with JagPad - over hundred of them even if Hatari documentations says the opposite.

I just wish the JagPad emulation would one day be complete since your team has decided to include it in the first place. Because that's how many of the Falcon and STe games are *designed* to be played.

It might be a nightmare to program the emulation, i don't know. And i understand that Hatari team might have other priorities over the JagPad things to do :)

But in the end if it could be complete, it would make a few Falcon and STe gamers happy. And help developers to test their code fully on emulation environment for future games.
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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby charliesgames » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:07 pm

Llamazap need jagpad support. You can't switch weapons without it if i recall correctly.

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:09 pm

Adding such emulation to Hatari requires:
* Documentation
* Real hardware (= Falcon + Jagpad) to verify details missing from documention
* Test program that utilizing all of the new functionality, which has been thoroughly tested on real HW to work as expected
* Buch of programs which need that functionality, so that it can be checked that there aren't any funky corner-case interactions with real programs that need to be handled

Status of those:
* It seems that Compedium has some documentation for controllers
* A good test-case is missing (should preferably be with source, so that it can be modified when needed)
* No Falcon & Jagpad HW.
* As to bunch of programs that otherwise work with Hatari and which use the extra functionality in JagPads, so far only LLamaZap has been mentioned

-> I.e. pre-conditions for adding such support to Hatari are greatly lacking. Any volunteers for writing/maintaining a test-case & testing it on their Falcon?

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Marakatti » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:40 pm

I lack programming skills but am more than happy to help testing. I have STe, Falcon030 and JagPad.

One of the great series on Falcon to test the emulation in the future is the Godlenes games, for example

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... 31632.html

which uses Pad for following actions:

Code: Select all

+---------------------------------------------+
| Keyboard     : Powerpad : Action            |
+---------------------------------------------+
| Cursor Up    : Up       : Up                |
| Cursor Down  : Down     : Down              |
| Cursor Left  : Left     : Left              |
| Cursor Right : Right    : Right             |
| Alternate    : Fire A   : A                 |
| Left Shift   : Fire B   : B                 |
| Control      : Fire C   : Autofire          |
| Undo         : Pause    : Start             |
| Help         : Option   : Select            |
| 1            : 1        : Gfx Detail Low    |
| 2            : 2        : Gfx Detail Mid    |
| 3            : 3        : Gfx Detail Hi     |
| 4            : 4        : Toggle Widescreen |
| 5            : 5        : Toggle Clipping   |
| S            : *        : Save              |
| L            : #        : Load              |
| F9           :          : Save Screenshot   |
| *            :          : Quit              |
+---------------------------------------------+


I wonder if there's any Jaguar emulator sources around, maybe it could give tips to the JagPad behaviour?
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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Foxie » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:41 pm

AFAIK the Jaguar Pad implementation on the Falcon is identical to the STE? It should be possible to test with an STE in that case. It's not a very complicated circuit - unlike Steem, Hatari already emulates the latch register properly. It's just a matter of exposing the user interface to be able to map the extra keys. I haven't looked at that part of the Hatari source, but I reckon most of the needed functionality is already there. There's already code for handling multiple mapped keys (for the multiple joystick support).

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby penguin » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:57 pm

GFA-Basic 3.7 includes support for the Jagpad as well. I helped Lonny with testing on a Falcon. His program displayed the various bits triggered by button presses.
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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:21 pm

penguin wrote:GFA-Basic 3.7 includes support for the Jagpad as well. I helped Lonny with testing on a Falcon. His program displayed the various bits triggered by button presses.


Sounds good! Is it available somewhere?

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby lp » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:33 am

http://gfabasic.net/

If you need something special just for testing, let me know. Might be able to whip something up for you.
Some joypad information here: https://www.gamesx.com/controldata/ejp_faq.htm

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby ThorstenOtto » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:12 pm

Just found an old FAQ which lists some titles that are supposed to support that joystick: https://www.gamesx.com/controldata/ejp_faq.htm

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:10 pm

> http://gfabasic.net/

Only thing I found was stickgfa.zip, but I don't see it supporting jagpad. If you meant something else, could you give a direct link?

I would like something that would test few different input masks, and output which of the buttons are being pressed at given time.

(And which has been tested to work correctly on real HW. :-))

> https://www.gamesx.com/controldata/ejp_faq.htm

Thanks, this seems very thorough, and does list ~15 games that would have EJP support.

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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Marakatti » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:24 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:and does list ~15 games that would have EJP support.


Only a handful of titles available in that list.

Here's a lot more:
http://www.atarimania.com/list_games_at ... 8_S_G.html
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Re: Falcon emulation in Hatari 2.0

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:26 pm

Hatari *already* supports joypad, so listing games that support that isn't useful. The question is which games require or have optional support for the *extra* Jagpad buttons.


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