1.44 Floppy image

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christos
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1.44 Floppy image

Postby christos » Sat May 28, 2016 3:25 pm

Hi,
I am unable to load a 1.44 msa image on Hatari. Am I missing something obvious or is it not supported?
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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby frank.lukas » Sat May 28, 2016 3:34 pm

See the Hatari manual ...

MSA is supported, try to load a 720kB MSA Image. May be a HD 1,44MB MSA Image is not supported ?
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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby christos » Sat May 28, 2016 3:47 pm

Yes, I've read the manual. Apparently hatari is able to create a 1.44MB floppy image but there is no mention for loading.

But we can cancel the topic. Apparently it was a corrupted image
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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby gwEm » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:31 pm

I’d like to resurrect this ancient thread as I’ve been playing around a lot with Hatari and high density disks last night.

In fact, I haven’t seen an option in the Hatari config menus to inform it that the drives are high density.

The GEM disk format menu doesn’t give an option for high density as I do on my Mega STe. It would be cool to have high density disk as an option on the menu where you select the machine type.

Or maybe I’ve got it totally wrong and have missed something obvious!!

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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby gwEm » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:17 pm

Or maybe where you select the disk images, there is an option there to select double sided, could add HD here?

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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby Dal » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:53 pm

On a MegaSTE, there’s a bank of dip switches that can be read by software. It so happens that TOS uses E7 to toggle HD disk mode. Apparently E8 disables DMA sounds too but I never tried it.

So, unless there’s a feature in Hatari I’m unaware of, I reckon it would be pretty cool to have these switches emulated.
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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby Eero Tamminen » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:02 pm

I recently read that TOS 2.x supports HD drives, and that TT (later models of it) and Falcon came with such drives installed by default. However, I didn't find information about whether MegaSTE machines were ever shipped with HD drives, so info about the dip switch is interesting.

My guess is that this dip switch is there to change the floppy motor stepping between 12 ms (DD drive) and 6 ms (HD drive), i.e. on MegaSTE one doesn't need to do any soldering (like one needs to do on ST/STE), just changing the drive itself is enough.

As to emulating dip switches, the only thing where that switch would have any relevance is cycle accurate FDC emulation, and for that one needs floppy image format that contains the necessary details about the extra data on the disks i.e. STX / Pasti format.

SD / DD / HD / ED sized floppy images with formats that don't contain timing information (MSA/ST/DIM) already work with all the machines, so I think it would be unexpected to the user if formats with timing information wouldn't also work.

Therefore I think an option for the dip switch could be a nuisance for a user. If user gives a HD STX / Pasti image to Hatari, it would be more user-friendly just to use correct floppy motor stepping value, than fail (and require user to somehow find out that it works only in specific machine, with specific dip setting option).

Note: According to this thread, Hatari doesn't yet support HD STX / Pasti formats: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=35443

I don't know of any program that would require cycle accurate HD drive emulation, so there doesn't seem to be much point. Cycle accurate floppy access just hugely slows down the floppy access. For DD images it's relevant because there are games which copy protection doesn't work correctly without cycle-accurate FDC emulation.

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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby gwEm » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:30 pm

I don't agree here. Many MegaSTes have HD drives, and furthermore, I have discovered a software (see other thread) that doesn't work properly with HD disks without proper detection in the OS.

Therefore, I definitely think there needs to be support for the MegaSTe HD drive DIP switch.

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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:42 pm

gwEm wrote:I don't agree here. Many MegaSTes have HD drives, and furthermore, I have discovered a software (see other thread) that doesn't work properly with HD disks without proper detection in the OS.

Therefore, I definitely think there needs to be support for the MegaSTe HD drive DIP switch.


HD floppy images in general work fine. Problem is just with low level STX/Pasti HD images, used for cycle-exact FDC emulation (needed for floppy game protections, which are AFAIK used only on SD/DD floppies), and low level floppy format support (if one wants to test floppy formatting programs).

First we need a proper STX HD disk image for testing (18 tracks, instead of 1024 byte sectors). And it's more important that those correct HD images work well with TOS, than a niche program (such as AkaiSeX).

PS. It's still a bit unclear for me whether drive tells what kind of floppy is inserted, or does TOS really need to test it. And what kind of differences there are for this in all machine types, TOS versions and HD floppy drives used in Atari machines.

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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby czietz » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:28 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:PS. It's still a bit unclear for me whether drive tells what kind of floppy is inserted, or does TOS really need to test it. And what kind of differences there are for this in all machine types, TOS versions and HD floppy drives used in Atari machines.


In the MegaSTE and TT, there are two bits in a register: one switches the Ajax/WD1772 clock from 8 MHz to 16 MHz (required for HD operation), the other one switches a signal line to the drive. The drive can use this line to switch to HD or it can rely on detecting the hole in HD floppies. TOS always switches these two bits together. When the DIP switch indicates that a HD floppy drive is installed, TOS will switch the density when it cannot read the disk with the current density.

Third-party HD upgrade kits for ST/STE work differently: since the register mentioned above does not exist, they need the drive to signal the density. I.e., the signal line is used as an input (not as an output) on the computer side. Many drives need to be modified to do this. The upgrade kit will use that signal to switch the WD1772 to 16 MHz and possibly also to double the step rate. This is totally transparent to TOS. For reading and writing, TOS does not care about the density, anyway. Just for formatting you need a program that allows you to format floppies with 18 sectors per track even though TOS does not think that there's a HD drive installed.

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Re: 1.44 Floppy image

Postby ijor » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:38 am

Eero Tamminen wrote:HD floppy images in general work fine. Problem is just with low level STX/Pasti HD images, used for cycle-exact FDC emulation (needed for floppy game protections, which are AFAIK used only on SD/DD floppies), and low level floppy format support (if one wants to test floppy formatting programs).


Not really. The problem here is just that the dip switch is not emulated. If the dip switch would be emulated then the program would work fine even with that Pasti image (as it does with EmuTOS).

It is true that some HD images work fine. But here, once again, the problem is not the image. It would be exactly the same if the image would be an HD standard one (and not a Pasti image with a custom sector size).
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