Hatari midi compatibility

A forum about the Hatari ST/STE emulator - the current version is v2.0.0

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:11 pm

Hi

many improvements were made to midi timings in the current devel version, and they will be in Hatari 1.9.
When using Hatari 1.8, there's nothing you can do, it's not some settings problem, it's the emulation that was not accurate enough.

Hatari 1.9 should be released soon, but in the meantime, you can get the latest sources from our sources repo http://hg.tuxfamily.org/mercurialroot/hatari/hatari/summary and build your own version if you like.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:59 pm

npomarede wrote:Hi

many improvements were made to midi timings in the current devel version, and they will be in Hatari 1.9.
When using Hatari 1.8, there's nothing you can do, it's not some settings problem, it's the emulation that was not accurate enough.

Hatari 1.9 should be released soon, but in the meantime, you can get the latest sources from our sources repo http://hg.tuxfamily.org/mercurialroot/hatari/hatari/summary and build your own version if you like.

Nicolas


Thanks for the response - I followed your link and the situation with the devel version seems very fluid, with changed versions being posted if not every day, then certainly every other day.

If V1.9 is on the horizon, I think I will just be patient and wait for that release, especially when, as you say, it should arrive with better MIDI emulation built in.

Once again, my thanks to you all for Hatari, a fantastic piece of software.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby Eero Tamminen » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:45 pm

> If V1.9 is on the horizon, I think I will just be patient and wait for that release, especially when, as you say, it should arrive with better MIDI emulation built in.

FYI: Although we originally hoped for a release in June, there have been some bugs found in new WinUAE CPU core 030 emulation (after enabling data cache support), that couldn't be resolved before vacations. As a result, release is not going to happen this month.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:13 pm

As also stated elsewhere, I'm happy to report that the MIDI problems I had with earlier versions of Hatari - in particular with MIDI data output from Cubase 2 stalling after just a few seconds - now seem totally fixed in Hatari V1.9.0 - Many thanks.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:18 pm

I'm back :-(

As I said above and elsewhere, V1.9.0 has completely fixed the playback problems I used to have with Cubase 2 running under Hatari. I've had a lot of fun listening to all my .ALL files from way back when, all being played very smoothly by Hatari running Cubase 2 on a little 10" netbook.

However, when I set about trying to make some more tracks and went into the grid editor [Edit\Grid] the grid edit screen appeared OK, and then a spilt second later a 'STOP' warning box popped up over the top with the message 'Internal Error 279492'.

There's only one button in this error box, the 'OK' button. If I click that, the box goes away for a very short time, perhaps 1/20th of a second, and then pops back up again. This happens every time I click OK in the box. If I hover the mouse pointer over the 'keep' or 'cancel' buttons at the top left corner of the grid editor screen and hit the RETURN key to clear the box then, during the 1/20th second interval when the box is not there, click KEEP or CANCEL, I can escape from the grid editor and from the error message loop, landing back in the main Cubase screen.

What I then find is that all the pulldown menus at the top of the screen no longer respond, (nothing happens when I wave the mouse pointer over them). However, the tape transport controls at the bottom and other non-upper-menu controls do still work.

There are some further observations I've made, one is that if I load up Cubase, create a new part and then go into the grid editor immediately there is no pop-up message box and the grid editor works normally. If I do a bit of editing (or not), then exit from the grid editor with KEEP or CANCEL, everything continues to work normally until the NEXT time I go into the grid editor, when the 'Internal Error' box pops up.

If I start Cubase, create a part, and wait for a while then try to go into the grid editor, I get the error box straight away. There seems to be a time window right after starting Cubase, during which I can go into the grid editor and use it without a problem, but attempting to use it at any time beyond that time window causes the error.

The other observation is that when this box first pops up, the 'MIDI OUT' activity bargraph meter (near right hand side on the tape transport controls) is showing maximum, black all the way to the top. Each time I 'OK' the error box and it pops back up, the OUT bargraph reading falls by one step, so if I hit OK ~ 16 times the bargraph reading eventually subsides to zero.

I should say that the version of Cubase 2 I'm using is the popular 'MCA' version, but I have used it for years and I don't get this problem on my real 2MB STFM. I've tried replicating this on my Desktop Linux computer, same OS but otherwise completely different hardware and different MIDI interface - same problem.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:25 pm

Hi
I never used Cubase or other MIDI programs, so I'm not familiar with this problem.
Is it possible for me to get the error with a very simple scenario ? Does it require to already have a file/track loaded or does it 'stop' even with no track if you just go into grid editor after starting Cubase ?
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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:23 pm

Hi npomarede,

Thanks for your interest. I'm trying to narrow this down a little bit more now, so I have just acquired the files for the freeware Cubase Lite and I am in the process of trying to get those onto a .ST disc image so I can read them into Hatari and run them. This is to see if it's actually a neutered / imperfect dongle check which is actually causing the crash in Cubase 2.

I've just been hammering Cubase 2 in and out of Grid Edit mode using CTRL-G to get into Grid Edit and ESC to get out, and went in and out maybe 30-40 times with no crash, but when I then started to use the mouse to go in (EDIT/GRID) and out (KEEP) the error message came up the second time I went into Grid Edit using the mouse.

If you want to try to reproduce this problem, first, it isn't necessary to have the MIDI interface enabled in F12/Devices. The problem happens for me whether I have MIDI hardware enabled or not.

Here are the steps to cause the error.

-Load Cubase 2, which I will assume is the MCA / 'Mike Hunter' version. (In case you don't know, Cubase 2 is a mono hi-res only program).

By default, Cubase loads the arrangement 'DEF.ARR', which is empty.

-You need to have at least something for the editor to work on before you are allowed to try to edit.

-At the left side of the screen is the 'track box' with just one track (Track 1) present and highlighted in black. Create a 'part' on Track 1 by pressing CTRL-P. A highlighted part appears on track 1 between the cursor lines. You needed to create this 'part', because otherwise there would be nothing to edit and you would not be allowed to enter the grid editor ("There is nothing to edit!")

-Go up to EDIT, choose GRID from the drop down menu.

If you do all of this fairly quickly after loading up you can probably go out of Grid Edit (KEEP) and back into Grid edit (EDIT/GRID), back out, in, out, a few times before it will eventually come up with the error message. Now I'm not sure at this stage, but it seems like if I only use keys (GTRL-G and ESC) to get in and out of Grid-Edit instead of using the mouse, the error doesn't occur, or at least not nearly as much. I'll try doing that a lot more to see if it is definitely the case.

Once the error message has come up, even if you manage to escape from the error message loop back to the main screen you then find that you don't have mouse access to the top menu bar. Even then, you can still get back into the Grid Edit screen using CTRL-G, but the error message pops straight back up.

It would also be interesting to hear if anyone else with MCA Cubase 2 can replicate my problem, and also to know if anyone with original (Dongled) Cubase 2 does or does not have this problem running under Hatari V1.9.0.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:49 pm

Further to the above: I followed my own steps above to start Cubase 2 and create a part, and then I went into and out of Grid-Edit 100 times (I counted!) using CTRL-G to enter and ESC to exit, with no errors or crashes.

After those 100 entries and exits using the keys only, at the 101st attempt I used the mouse (EDIT/GRID) to enter Grid Edit - the screen loaded OK and I was able to use the tools to drop a few notes into the grid. I exited with KEEP to save the changes.

I then re-entered the Grid editor using the mouse to select Edit/Grid, and up came the error box.

Repeating the above again, at the 101st attempt I used the mouse to select EDIT/GRID to successfully enter Grid Edit as before. I exited with KEEP, and this time tried to re-enter Grid edit using GTRL-G instead of the mouse. Up came the error box.

So what it now looks like is that you can enter Grid-Edit with the CTRL-G keypress as much and as often as you want. But If you enter Grid-Edit using the mouse, then exit, the error will occur the very next time you go into Grid-Edit regardless of whether you use the CTRL-G keypress or the mouse.

Edit: Just fired up my 2.5MB STFM and repeated the same experiment just in case this is an actual previously unnoticed obscure bug in this version of Cubase 2. On the real ST I can enter and exit Grid Edit indefinitely by either means (mouse or keyboard shortcuts) with no errors, ever.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:48 pm

Just fired up Cubase Lite courtesy of fellow forum member Sonus - unfortunately it turns out that Lite does not have the Grid editor feature so I can't attempt to reproduce the problems described above on Lite.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:53 pm

Hi
Which version are you using ? On this page http://www.planetemu.net/roms/atari-st-applications-st , I see several MCA versions. Can you check which ones is not working so I can use it too to do some tests ?

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:13 pm

npomarede,

The first version that I tried from the list on the screen you linked to was this:

Cubase - Desktop Midi Recording System v2.0 (1989)(Steinberg)(Disk 1 of 2)[cr MCA]
Cubase - Desktop Midi Recording System v2.0 (1989)(Steinberg)(Disk 2 of 2)[cr MCA]

This version looks the same as mine and crashes in the same way on second entry to the Grid Edit screen using a mouse.

I changed to MONO mode in Hatari, then
-Installed disk 1 in Hatari's floppy drive 0
-installed disk 2 in Hatari's floppy drive 1
-Did not enable MIDI in F12 / Devices (No need, the error happens anyway).
-Rebooted to the mono desktop. Opened disk 1, ran Cubase.PRG.

-When starting from floppy it takes a long time to start up (I normally run it from HDD). Also, it doesn't seem to read anything from the second floppy during boot so you may only actually need disk 1 to try this out.

Again, so you don't have to read back through the thread: Once Cubase has started,

CTRL_P to create a new 'part' between the cursors.
With the mouse, choose EDIT / GRID. The first time you do this it should go into the Grid Edit screen OK.
With the mouse, exit from Grid Edit by clicking KEEP, upper left of the screen. This puts you back on the Cubase main screen.
With the mouse, choose EDIT / GRID. The Grid Edit screen will be drawn OK as before but then immediately, a persistent error box pops up.

If the error box doesn't pop up on the second entry to Grid / Edit, try exiting with KEEP and entering with EDIT/ GRID a few more times. It doesn't normally take many attempts to get it to happen.

This problem can be reproduced by me on two completely separate Linux boxes running Hatari 1.9.0, but not on a real ST.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:38 pm

Hi,
thanks for the detailled case. I will have a look at this in a few days and let you know what I find.
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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:56 pm

Npomarede, were you able to shed any light on this problem? In the time since I last posted here I have had one other person confirm this 'Error on second entry to Cubase 2 Grid Edit using a mouse' problem (as described in the post before last) independently.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:13 pm

Hi,
no I didn't have time to check MIDI yet, I'm still working on other CPU issues.
But I did not forget it, I hope I can have a look soon :)
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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:18 pm

I understand, it's in the queue.

I didn't want to hassle you, but on the other hand I didn't want you to think I wasn't really interested in seeing the problem fixed.

Good luck with the CPU problems!

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:34 pm

I was able to reproduce your issue, but at the same time I also saw a workaround for this.
From what I see, the problem only arises when using Hatari with the "old" cpu core, but if you use the falcon version (hatari_falcon.exe if using windows) then this uses the more recent cpu core from winuae and in that case Cubase doesn't fail when using grid editor.
Can you try this and confirm it works for you too ?

Note that for GEM programs it's safe to use hatari_falcon.exe even for STF/STE emulation (it's not recommanded at the moment for games and demos)
I think some parts of the protection are still present and there's some cpu emulation errors with the old cpu core that need to be fixed.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:47 pm

It sounds as though, if I just give you time to fix all the CPU problems then this little problem might automatically be fixed as well. :-)

I heard some time ago that the Windows version of Hatari can not offer support for hardware MIDI, which is the main reason for my interest in Hatari: Therefore, I have never used the Windows version.

I'm very pleased by your news that there might be a workaround, however, I'm uncertain as to how to proceed to use the newer core.

I'm using Hatari 1.9.0 Linux. Is it just a matter of running Cubase 2 with the machine parameters set to 'Falcon' rather than 'ST / STe?'

Or do I need to compile Hatari differently to use the newer core? My normal method of compilation for Hatari is simply to CD to the folder containing the unzipped Hatari files and then

Code: Select all

./configure

make

sudo make install

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:55 pm

you just need to compile it with new cpu :
./configure --enable-winuae-cpu
Then run this binary with ST/STE machine type as usual.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:06 pm

(....Fast reply!) Thank you, I'll try that and report back as soon as I can.

Edit: Looking good!

When compiling with the WinUAE core enabled, compilation threw up hundreds of warnings with frequent long pauses but I just waited until it got to the end and, when I ran Hatari and loaded Cubase 2, I was able to go into Grid Edit and out (using the mouse) over and over again (at least 60 times) without the error box popping up. This was not possible when Hatari was compiled with the old core - usually (as you saw) an error box would appear on second time entry to the Grid editor using the mouse.

I'm away for a few days from tomorrow - when I get back next week I'll make a serious attempt at putting together a new track, which should exercise most of the features of Cubase in the process.

Thank you so much for taking a look at it, it's really appreciated. I love my real STs but it has been a long term hope of mine to have a highly portable go-anywhere Atari ST Cubase 2 setup - I feel very close to that now.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:37 pm

Hi
yes, the WinUAE cpu core takes more time to compile (it includes many more modes/accuracy for the whole 680xx family).
I found the cause of the bug and fixed it (even if it's cracked, some self modified code used by the protection was still there and not correctly handled with old cpu core).
You can try the devel version here http://mercurial.tuxfamily.org/mercurialroot/hatari/hatari if you like, to get up to date version with this fix, or keep using the version you compiled yourself.
In next Hatari version (1.10, no release date yet), old cpu core will be deprecated, default will be the recent WinUAE cpu core.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:27 am

I spent the evening 'bashing' Cubase 2 running under Hatari 1.9.0 / WinUAE core and so far I have no problems, or at least not directly related to Cubase 2 or Hatari.

The mouse and keyboard occasionally do strange things (for example, in non fullscreen mode the mouse pointer may refuse to travel all the way up/ down /left / right to one particular edge - the only way to get it to do so is to take it all the way to the opposite side of the screen and then back again).

Also, entry boxes (such as track name boxes) sometimes pop up without being invoked and fill with a row, all of the same letters or characters. I suspect these issues are SDL related rather than Hatari related. (The mouse boundary slippage issue is widely reported in SDL related threads in various forums).

Unless I can find a way to reliably reproduce these problems - which I can't at the moment - I won't ask you to look any further into them.

Thanks also for tweaking the old Core, I will try it and see if it performs any differently. Obviously (at the moment) the old core working with Cubase would be the better option for now as you don't yet recommend the new core for usage with games / demos.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Tue Nov 10, 2015 9:19 am

siriushardware wrote:I spent the evening 'bashing' Cubase 2 running under Hatari 1.9.0 / WinUAE core and so far I have no problems, or at least not directly related to Cubase 2 or Hatari.

The mouse and keyboard occasionally do strange things (for example, in non fullscreen mode the mouse pointer may refuse to travel all the way up/ down /left / right to one particular edge - the only way to get it to do so is to take it all the way to the opposite side of the screen and then back again).

if you want, you can lock the mouse into the Hatari window, just press "right alt" + "l" at the same time (see the doc for the list of shortcuts)
Also, entry boxes (such as track name boxes) sometimes pop up without being invoked and fill with a row, all of the same letters or characters. I suspect these issues are SDL related rather than Hatari related. (The mouse boundary slippage issue is widely reported in SDL related threads in various forums).

Unless I can find a way to reliably reproduce these problems - which I can't at the moment - I won't ask you to look any further into them.

Thanks also for tweaking the old Core, I will try it and see if it performs any differently. Obviously (at the moment) the old core working with Cubase would be the better option for now as you don't yet recommend the new core for usage with games / demos.

It's now safe to use the new core for games/demos and everything else in fact ; old core might get some fixes, but it's better to stick with the new core now.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:36 pm

npomarede wrote:if you want, you can lock the mouse into the Hatari window, just press "right alt" + "l" at the same time (see the doc for the list of shortcuts)


In fact I prefer to use fullscreen mode, especially because I'm running on a 10" netbook so the Atari screen needs all the height it can get, but as I was trying to test it reasonably thoroughly, I ran it in the mode I don't usually run it in as well as the mode I do usually run it in, to see if that threw up any issues.

npomarede wrote:It's now safe to use the new core for games/demos and everything else in fact ; old core might get some fixes, but it's better to stick with the new core now. Nicolas


For those who will stick to the last stable release V1.9.0, is that still true?

I'm guessing you mean that the new core as it now stands in the beta is to be preferred over the old core now, but for anyone staying with the last stable release (V1.9.0) for the time being, which is the better core for them to use for now?

(I myself will now try to download, compile and run the beta, since you feel that the WinUAE core is now the better core).

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby npomarede » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:41 pm

siriushardware wrote:
npomarede wrote:It's now safe to use the new core for games/demos and everything else in fact ; old core might get some fixes, but it's better to stick with the new core now. Nicolas


For those who will stick to the last stable release V1.9.0, is that still true?

I'm guessing you mean that the new core as it now stands in the beta is to be preferred over the old core now, but for anyone staying with the last stable release (V1.9.0) for the time being, which is the better core for them to use for now?

(I myself will now try to download, compile and run the beta, since you feel that the WinUAE core is now the better core).

Yes I mean the new core in the devel version, not in Hatari 1.9. For 1.9 the old core should be used for STF/STE as all the specific code was not ported to the new core when 1.9 was released.

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Re: Hatari midi compatibility

Postby siriushardware » Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:58 pm

Forgive my ignorance, but is there a quick way to get a .zip or tarball of all the files and folders of the current dev version? Following your link a few posts ago I can see lots of files and folders which would need to be downloaded individually - I am happy to do that if there is no easier way, but maybe there is an easier way?


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