PASTI: is it really preservation?

In this forum you'll find more information about the Pasti & VAPI Tools and the Preservation Project built around these tools. Come on in to find out more about it and discuss these projects.

Moderators: Mug UK, ijor, Moderator Team

User avatar
farvardin
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: France
Contact:

PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby farvardin » Sat May 22, 2010 6:37 pm

when we're talking about the preservation of something, it means we should be able to get access to the data, at any moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_preservation

I'm wondering about Pasti: contrary to the .ST format which is a simple dump of a disk, I can't read those pasti image on my computer (running Linux and Hatari). Besides, is Pasti open source and using open standards? In the case it's not, how can we talk about preservation if we're not sure to be able to read pasti disks in the future? (except running a windows XP system in a virtual machine...)

Is it possible to convert a pasti disk to .ST?
There are many (most) of atarimania disks I can't read because it's converted in this format.

User avatar
Marakatti
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1305
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 9:58 am
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Marakatti » Sun May 23, 2010 5:43 am

I think it's a more of a question when the required datafiles for running Pasti for Hatari becomes available. I believe you can "convert" Windows Steem to run on Linux using various Wine-tools. On Mac it can be done with Macindows or Winebottler.

At the moment there's no alternative for pasti so it's the one one we need to use. Unfortunately Pasti is a one man show, so all we can do is to a) wait or b) start another coding-project for a similar program.

This is an urgent question, if we only wait year after year without doing anything there's not going to be much to preserve :(
-------------< Member of Atarimania >-----------
-< ST / STe / Falcon030 / TT030 archiver >-
-------------> www.atarimania.com <-------------

User avatar
farvardin
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby farvardin » Sun May 23, 2010 6:09 am

but is it open source at least? I can't find information on the website. When we're talking about games, most of them are already unprotected so what really matters is having access to the data, not to the protection schemes which are "defective by design" (like DRM stuffs).

And if the PASTI tool is in binary form only (without spec or sources), we don't have the assurance to be able to read it forever.


On atarimania when I see a game which looks nice, I have to search on other websites for the download, because the pasti format is not readable.

For example for being able to play to The Black Cauldron ( http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... 20994.html ), after a quite long search, I could find it at this address

User avatar
lotek_style
Mod(ul)erator
Mod(ul)erator
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 2:39 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby lotek_style » Sun May 23, 2010 11:58 am

I personally think Atarimania should host the cracks aswell but they are not up to that as far as I understood.
lotek style / the sirius cybernetics corporation
- musician - ascii-artist - swapper - archivist -

.tSCc. - low-tech atari cyberpunks since 1990
http://www.tscc.de/ | http://demozoo.org/ | http://www.lotekstyle.de/ | http://ymrockerz.atari.org/

User avatar
snoopy
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Obsessive compulsive Atari behavior
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:15 pm

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby snoopy » Sun May 23, 2010 12:23 pm

Honestly, I do hope that the pasti format/imager will be open source soon, so that we can finally put an end to the eternal question whether pasti is good or not. It has been discussed in various forms on the forum.
And it always comes down to
1. it not being open source so that everyone can just have a look for themselves and
2. that you cannot copy the images back onto a disk. For putting it back I would love to have a converter that will convert non-copy protected images to msa.
Snoopy aka Roloway

User avatar
dlfrsilver
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1398
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby dlfrsilver » Sun May 23, 2010 8:55 pm

Cracks are one thing, originals are another.

Cracks allow copying while originals don't. But i don't want personally to see cracks and only that. Originals were the official and legal things, not the cracks.

In museum copies are not preserved, they are just destroyed because only the originals have the rights to live.
Now SPS France representative since the 19th of June 2014. Proud to be an SPS member !

User avatar
farvardin
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby farvardin » Sun May 23, 2010 9:00 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:In museum copies are not preserved, they are just destroyed because only the originals have the rights to live.


funny because you advocate against copies, but if you're for pasti then it's exactly what it does: creating a copy against the authors' will.

User avatar
lotek_style
Mod(ul)erator
Mod(ul)erator
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 2:39 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby lotek_style » Sun May 23, 2010 10:20 pm

[quote="dlfrsilver"]Cracks are one thing, originals are another.

Cracks allow copying while originals don't. But i don't want personally to see cracks and only that. Originals were the official and legal things, not the cracks.

In museum copies are not preserved, they are just destroyed because only the originals have the rights to live.[/quote]

Lol I'm sorry... but uploading a PASTI of a game is an illegal copy TOO! Think about your logic.
lotek style / the sirius cybernetics corporation
- musician - ascii-artist - swapper - archivist -

.tSCc. - low-tech atari cyberpunks since 1990
http://www.tscc.de/ | http://demozoo.org/ | http://www.lotekstyle.de/ | http://ymrockerz.atari.org/

User avatar
dlfrsilver
Atari God
Atari God
Posts: 1398
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:41 am
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby dlfrsilver » Mon May 24, 2010 12:57 pm

A pasti image, is the game like it was intended by its former creator, with a custom disk format, protection and so on. You can only image a game in pasti because
while you can't WRITE BACK the original disks, you can read them, with all they have internally. You generate then the equivalent of a master BEFORE being written on disk for mastering.
Now SPS France representative since the 19th of June 2014. Proud to be an SPS member !

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby SofiST » Tue May 25, 2010 10:53 am

it seems that nobody relevant cares anymore about copyrights of old Atari ST (+ practically all other old home computer) games. At least I don't see removing of sites holding thousands of disk images (mostly cracks).
What is funny in all this, is that even official publisher sites (Thalion, Loricilel for instance, etc.) are 'forced' to offer only illegal crack versions of their games :o . I guess that reason is that they can not find copies of originals.
All in all, I think that discussions about legal issues are now pretty outdated and useless. We should focus more on making good databases, good DL bases with usable and errorfree game copies. I say it because at moment it is not really the case.
Under usable I mean anything what will allow playing, trying game. So, ST, MSA, Pasti or archive with game's files (hard disk installable for instance).

Is Pasti really preservation ? I would say that yes, even if it not allows recreation of original floppies at moment. And I guess that it will be usable with some future emulators too, but of course it depends on author mostly. In any case emulators have future, long terming, while old Atari machines will not work forever...

This reminds me about game Alien Blast: only available is Vectronix crack, but it crashes at level 3. So, does anyone knows about good image(s), and if can post here link, or image(s) self :angel:

User avatar
ICS
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:26 am
Location: .de

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby ICS » Tue May 25, 2010 9:20 pm

SofiST wrote:This reminds me about game Alien Blast: only available is Vectronix crack, but it crashes at level 3. So, does anyone knows about good image(s), and if can post here link, or image(s) self :angel:


I mentioned that to Metallinos of Vectronix right after the game was cracked.
And all he replied was 'nah it does not crash, your disk(s) must be faulty'.

So does that mean the original crashes too, perhaps? :P

Anyways about PASTI: It is the only format that can preserve copy protected disks on Atari.
MSA and ST cannot do that. Writing back images was supposed to work if the user had a special
hardware (Catweasel was one, Discovery Cartridge the other) but I didn't really followed the
project anymore. Ijor would maybe have to clarify a few things so the whiny ppl stop complaining.

Cheers!

User avatar
rocket-dog
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Great Britain - The Kingdom of Mercia

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby rocket-dog » Tue May 25, 2010 10:00 pm

Having spent 12 weeks before Christmas debating the value of non-tangible verses tangible heritage all that was quite fascinating. Perhaps we should consider software in the same context as oral history in that is what is said that is important, not how it is recorded?

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby SofiST » Wed May 26, 2010 12:32 pm

I looked little into Alien Blast with debugger. It is pretty poor coded. Very likely that crash appears only under certain circumstances (specific RAM size, TOS version).

As I know Pasti format is not usable on Catweasel or Discovery Cartridge (correct me if I'm wrong) - so such devices have own storage format, or just can only copy disks without making images (?) .
In any case, at moment Pasti writing/specs. problem is again 'on' - likely because currently actual HW floppy emulator, and people wishing to run pasti images with.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 11937
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby wongck » Wed May 26, 2010 1:30 pm

rocket-dog wrote:Having spent 12 weeks before Christmas debating the value of non-tangible verses tangible heritage all that was quite fascinating. Perhaps we should consider software in the same context as oral history in that is what is said that is important, not how it is recorded?


Huh? Means that something recorded backwards is OK because the contents are there. But play back will definately sounds funny. :lol:
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

Hippy Dave
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:40 am

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Hippy Dave » Wed May 26, 2010 7:43 pm

Is there not copy blasting software that runs on an ST?
If can copy back to disk, then floppy emulation will do the trick.

User avatar
rocket-dog
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:13 pm
Location: Great Britain - The Kingdom of Mercia

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby rocket-dog » Wed May 26, 2010 8:08 pm

wongck wrote:Huh? Means that something recorded backwards is OK because the contents are there. But play back will definately sounds funny. :lol:


I know if you play Amiga software backwards it says "Worship Satan, kill your granny!!!" over and over. :D :twisted:

What I am saying in more poetic way is that one of Shakespeare's sonnets sounds just a good read from a paperback complete works bought in a super market as it does read from a Tudor original.

User avatar
wongck
Ultimate Atarian
Ultimate Atarian
Posts: 11937
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 2:09 pm
Location: Far East
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby wongck » Thu May 27, 2010 11:55 am

rocket-dog wrote:I know if you play Amiga software backwards it says "Worship Satan, kill your granny!!!" over and over. :D :twisted:

:lol: :lol: don't tempt me, I want to get an Amiga just to listen to that.

rocket-dog wrote:What I am saying in more poetic way is that one of Shakespeare's sonnets sounds just a good read from a paperback complete works bought in a super market as it does read from a Tudor original.


Ok... :wink:
My Stuff: FB/Falcon CT63+CTPCI_ATI_RTL8139 14+512MB 30GB HDD CF HxC_SD/ TT030 68882 4+32MB 520MB Nova/ 520STFM 4MB Tos206 SCSI
Shared SCSI Bus:ScsiLink ethernet, 9GB HDD,SD-reader @ http://phsw.atari.org
My Atari stuff for sale - click here for list

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby alexh » Thu May 27, 2010 8:50 pm

SofiST wrote:What is funny in all this, is that even official publisher sites (Thalion, Loricilel for instance, etc.) are 'forced' to offer only illegal crack versions of their games :o . I guess that reason is that they can not find copies of originals.

There is no official publisher site for Thalion.

I offer PaSTi and IPF images for games if available.

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby SofiST » Fri May 28, 2010 10:29 am

alexh wrote:
SofiST wrote:What is funny in all this, is that even official publisher sites (Thalion, Loricilel for instance, etc.) are 'forced' to offer only illegal crack versions of their games :o . I guess that reason is that they can not find copies of originals.

There is no official publisher site for Thalion.
I offer PaSTi and IPF images for games if available.


Right for Thalion site. Anyway, it stays that we can see mostly cracks on sites holding old games.
The key is in your words: "if available" :) Official or not, problem is same. Many thing is lost, together with interest for them .

User avatar
farvardin
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 343
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby farvardin » Fri May 28, 2010 10:13 pm

has the author of Pasti considered open sourcing it? It would help bringing more developpers for supporting other OS such as Linux, Mac OS X and such...

User avatar
alexh
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Fuji Shaped Bastard
Posts: 2553
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: UK - Oxford
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby alexh » Sat May 29, 2010 5:54 am

SofiST wrote:The key is in your words: "if available" :) Official or not, problem is same. Many thing is lost, together with interest for them .

I don't think it is that. PaSTi is a relatively new product. Had it been around when emulators had first started (even if it was only on the Windows platform) I am sure that the publishers would have tried to use it.

However .ST or .MSA files were the only option for emulators at the time publishers officially started to offer disk images for download.

For an official software company to have provided 100% original disk images they would have had to develop a new emulator disk format. That is too much like hard work just for nostalgia. It would take a real enthusiast with lots of spare time.

Much easier for the publishers to offer a crack in .ST format. Perhaps take the time to remove the crack intro.

User avatar
Marcer
Atarilegend
Atarilegend
Posts: 4107
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:21 pm
Location: sweden
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Marcer » Sat May 29, 2010 7:54 am

I just wanna say couple of notes..

Of course owning a original is the best. But I wont even dare to know how many titles would been forgotten and nuked if there werent any shared/cracks of these..

So for atarimania I would prefer to see Cracks online.. until an original pop-up atleast. use cracks as stand-in for missing titles..

// Marcer
- Atari ST/FM/E - Mega sTe - Portfolio - Falcon 030 FX 3 in 1 -- Atari 7800/Lynx/Jaguar -
- FTP... Ask for info
- Atari Legend (Games all-a-round)
- Paradize (Chip Music)
- Elite (Atari Softs)
- The Legion (Demos)
- Alive Maggie Team
_/|\_YM-RockerZ_/|\_

User avatar
lotek_style
Mod(ul)erator
Mod(ul)erator
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 2:39 pm
Location: germany
Contact:

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby lotek_style » Sat May 29, 2010 10:03 am

Marcer: I would go one step further and think ALL versions should be available online... so practically your game dvd integrated :P
lotek style / the sirius cybernetics corporation
- musician - ascii-artist - swapper - archivist -

.tSCc. - low-tech atari cyberpunks since 1990
http://www.tscc.de/ | http://demozoo.org/ | http://www.lotekstyle.de/ | http://ymrockerz.atari.org/

SofiST
Atari Super Hero
Atari Super Hero
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:25 pm

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby SofiST » Sat May 29, 2010 11:08 am

alexh wrote:...
I don't think it is that. PaSTi is a relatively new product. Had it been around when emulators had first started (even if it was only on the Windows platform) I am sure that the publishers would have tried to use it.
However .ST or .MSA files were the only option for emulators at the time publishers officially started to offer disk images for download...
For an official software company to have provided 100% original disk images they would have had to develop a new emulator disk format. That is too much like hard work just for nostalgia. It would take a real enthusiast with lots of spare time.
Much easier for the publishers to offer a crack in .ST format. Perhaps take the time to remove the crack intro.


Problem with Pasti is that you need working Atari ST and original floppy(es) of game. Many of old programmers has no it.
I don't think that new image format is required. Best solution would be to post unprotected originals - what happened couple times.
Someone removes crack intros, fixes bugs, TOS incompatibilities etc. and working on archive with all available image formats (which have sense) + hard disk runnable ZIP archives : http://petari.co.cc/astgam.php

User avatar
Jake/Depression
Captain Atari
Captain Atari
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:40 am
Location: Finland

Re: PASTI: is it really preservation?

Postby Jake/Depression » Sat May 29, 2010 1:39 pm

You thing new imageformat not are needet because you not are made it. :p

Thing it little more.
Because there is so many games and only some crackers and fixers, we need made backups or some protected games are so called "lost". Thats reason why pasti is good thing. (I personally like cracks and like these nice intros what is includet in too.)

There is some games what are originally harddisk compatible or password protected only and i thing it is good idea put these games in Atarimania in msa files too, so real Atari users can used them before some program is made.
-soimaamme toinen toista ja unohdamme tulta kohentaa-


Social Media

     

Return to “Pasti & VAPI”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest