Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

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PaulB
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Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby PaulB » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:29 pm

Well my Falcon is still misbehaving with new ram so it can't be that, that's causing a white screen and no floppy access etc. So.. The only thing left that I can change to try to get it working is the tos chip. I currently have tos 4.04 in it at the moment but I'm willing to accept any Falcon tos for now just to see if it works.

Anyone have a spare Falcon tos chip they can sell me? I'm based in London but I'll buy from anywhere in the world.

If you want to sell one, please pm me or answer here, and I'll pm you back.

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby techie_alison » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:44 pm

Heyo Paul,

You have mail. :-)

The question is, how are the bytes organised across the chips? I have a single 512KByte image here which would need to be split correctly.

I believe it is four 1Mbit (128KByte) chips on a Falcon. TOS 4.04. I could do this in the next 10-minutes if I had the four individual images of each chip. With a single image I'm not 100% what get's split where and in what order.

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby ppera » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:54 pm

Falcon has 16-bit EPROM. PLCC . 1 chip only .

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby PaulB » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:02 pm

I think Atari remade tos in a new chip so that they could stop people with eeprom programmers from duplicating their os :wink: . I might be wrong on that though, it's probably just a case of they could save money by buying one chip instead of two (or four).

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Chandler » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:16 pm

falcon has 1 small square TOS chip, looks like a small square processor chip and fits into a socket

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Chandler » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:11 pm

Paul

what actually happens when you turn on the falcon?

does the floppy light illuminate?

my experience of dead TOS roms (only on ST/STE's is no floppy light and a white rolling screen

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Greenious » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:12 pm

I made a batch of TOS 4.04 a long time ago, but I am out now, and it is unlikely I will do any more. The chips, at the time atleast, was a b*tch to locate, and it is indeed a single chip. A 16bit 4mbit PLCC. (27C4096)
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby bullis1 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:18 pm

Greenious wrote:I made a batch of TOS 4.04 a long time ago, but I am out now, and it is unlikely I will do any more. The chips, at the time atleast, was a b*tch to locate, and it is indeed a single chip. A 16bit 4mbit PLCC. (27C4096)


Would it possible to use a version of that chip with more than 4mbit capacity? I've seen this done in other machines, when a newer/higher capacity chip is more plentiful or cheaper than tracking down an old one.
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Greenious » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:24 pm

bullis1 wrote: Would it possible to use a version of that chip with more than 4mbit capacity? I've seen this done in other machines, when a newer/higher capacity chip is more plentiful or cheaper than tracking down an old one.


I don't know for sure, but I believe that 4mbit is the largest 44pin PLCC eprom ever to be made.
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby techie_alison » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:26 pm

27c4096. 4Mbit (256k x 16bits)

DIP40 To PLCC44 EPROM PLCC Adapter For 27C1024 27C4096
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DIP40-To-PLCC44-E ... dZViewItem


Well that's half of the puzzle solved.

Now to find the chips. RS don't have them. Neither do Farnell.
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby PaulB » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:37 pm

Chandler wrote:Paul

what actually happens when you turn on the falcon?

does the floppy light illuminate?

my experience of dead TOS roms (only on ST/STE's is no floppy light and a white rolling screen


I have it connected via the tv modulator. the tv is tuned in to the frequency ok too.

Switch it on and instantly I get a pure white screen. The original floppy drive it came with has never lit up so I changed it to another floppy I know for a fact is working from a 1040stfm. The motherboard fan is spinning. The keyboard power light is on. When I put a disk in the floppy drive I can hear it spin and open the disk slide. Although at no point during boot time or after pressing a key does the floppy access light come on. There is no key click noise when a key is pressed.

Today I put a 2.5" ide drive on it and booted it with that. The drive spins up (so it's also powered) but everything else is the same.

The reason I thought it may be the ram before was because with the ram connected or not connected it gave the same white screen. I've removed the tos before and booted it like that and as you say, I get a white scrolling screen.

Now I'm thinking that my tos may be faulty and tos is the thing that would tell the floppy drive to spin up in the first place during boot time. Since I get nothing, my last option at fixing this is to try another tos chip.

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Chandler » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:53 pm

hmm i guess the only way to try this then is to get a TOS rom

but like anything falcon they are hard to find

if it isn't that then i'd say one of the other chips like DMA, VIDEO GLUE etc but again being falcon, hard to find and pricy!and possibly surface mounted so that will be an even bigger hurdle

did you buy this as a working machine? it was that one on ebay with no picture wasn't it?

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Greenious » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:08 pm

techie_alison wrote:27c4096. 4Mbit (256k x 16bits)

DIP40 To PLCC44 EPROM PLCC Adapter For 27C1024 27C4096
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DIP40-To-PLCC44-E ... dZViewItem


Well that's half of the puzzle solved.

Now to find the chips. RS don't have them. Neither do Farnell.


Well, all DIP style 16 bit eproms are 42 pins.

Also, that solution is inverted to what you need. You need a dip socket that converts into something that fits in a PLCC socket.

Next problem is the sheer size of the adapter. Since the RAM board is fitted right above the TOS socket, barely 1 mm is available...
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Greenious » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:12 pm

PaulB wrote: Now I'm thinking that my tos may be faulty and tos is the thing that would tell the floppy drive to spin up in the first place during boot time. Since I get nothing, my last option at fixing this is to try another tos chip.


Well, I should have one or two older TOS 4 from upgrading other Falcons. If 4.01 or 4.02 is ok, I can have a look for them.
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby PaulB » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:20 pm

So you saw it then? Yes it was the ebay auction with no pictures. The guy said in the ad that he would try and get pics up 'next week' when he got back from somewhere. He also stated in the ad 'works perfectly'.

Only reason I bought it was because his username was 8bitgamesmuseum (or something similar). He was selling loads of stuff for a time and I saw from his previous feedback that muguk and techie alison had bought from him with no problems. Although they were apps or games.

I've sent him 5 emails so far. One to ask where the falcon was 6 days after I paid for it when the auction said 24hr delivery (which i was paying for). No answer but it turned up 2 days later.

2nd email was to say that the falcon didn't work and did he know what could be wong. Did he swap the tos/ram etc after testing it. Maybe that's why it wasn't working.

3rd email was pretty much the same as 2nd.

4th email I said to him that since he never answered my 3 previous emails (over 7 days), I believed that he knowingly sold me a non-working falcon and that i would give him bad feedback and report him to ebay and claim my money back from paypal.

He actually replied to that last email asking me why I was threatening him and said that he has 100% feedback and that was because he didn't sell bad computers.

I replied (because he finally did) and said sorry for that. Then I told him what symptoms the Falcon had. I sent that same email twice and have had no answer.

I've got his address in Milton Keynes and even though it's way out of my way I think I'm going to go and kick his head in and get my money back. I get along with everyone almost all of the time but when people try to do that sort of thing to me it gets my back up!

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby PaulB » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:22 pm

Greenious wrote:Well, I should have one or two older TOS 4 from upgrading other Falcons. If 4.01 or 4.02 is ok, I can have a look for them.


Thanks Mr Greenious. That would be great if you can supply any falcon tos for me. At least that way I can tell if the current tos chip is the fault or not.

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby beastie » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:34 pm

PaulB wrote:So you saw it then? Yes it was the ebay auction with no pictures. The guy said in the ad that he would try and get pics up 'next week' when he got back from somewhere. He also stated in the ad 'works perfectly'.

Only reason I bought it was because his username was 8bitgamesmuseum (or something similar). He was selling loads of stuff for a time and I saw from his previous feedback that muguk and techie alison had bought from him with no problems. Although they were apps or games.

I've sent him 5 emails so far. One to ask where the falcon was 6 days after I paid for it when the auction said 24hr delivery (which i was paying for). No answer but it turned up 2 days later.

2nd email was to say that the falcon didn't work and did he know what could be wong. Did he swap the tos/ram etc after testing it. Maybe that's why it wasn't working.

3rd email was pretty much the same as 2nd.

4th email I said to him that since he never answered my 3 previous emails (over 7 days), I believed that he knowingly sold me a non-working falcon and that i would give him bad feedback and report him to ebay and claim my money back from paypal.

He actually replied to that last email asking me why I was threatening him and said that he has 100% feedback and that was because he didn't sell bad computers.

I replied (because he finally did) and said sorry for that. Then I told him what symptoms the Falcon had. I sent that same email twice and have had no answer.

I've got his address in Milton Keynes and even though it's way out of my way I think I'm going to go and kick his head in and get my money back. I get along with everyone almost all of the time but when people try to do that sort of thing to me it gets my back up!


Man... You're not the only one. I know some very similar stories. All are about Falcons :-(

I'm happy I bought my one without any probles from my friend's friend. Although it is repacked to PC tower case and has old TOS 4.02, which causes some troubles occasionally (like with the Mr Heli game by RGs). I hope you'll solve the problem, otherwise you should learn this guy some "basic lessons". Best wishes on solving the problem.

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Chandler » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:31 pm

if you paid with paypal you can speak to them/start a charge back under the "item not as described" section (ie: it was described as working - the fact is, it is not)

i usually find people "wake up" when paypal get involved :wink:

if you don't get anywhere i'd go and "see" him :wink:

if it's not the TOS rom you will be spending money on this machine i'm sure, depends how far you wanna go with it and if you don't get anywhere then you'll really wann go kick the guys head in!!!!!!

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby techie_alison » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:12 pm

Here's the solution to the TOS rom.

;1) Buy one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/EPROM-conversion- ... 911.c0.m14

Or a 32 pin one if it's smaller (take a photo of it).

;2) Take the EPROM out.

;3) Read it in an EPROM programmer (several of us have them).

If any of the bits have gone flakey then we can erase it (assuming it's windowed) and re-burn it. I wouldn't think it is the EPROM though, they're quite sturdy. Possible though.
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby PaulB » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:51 pm

Chandler, yes mate I did pay with Paypal. The only reason I've not done anything about it yet is that I've wanted a Falcon for so long now, I'd rather get it working than complain. However I believe he knowingly sold it as non-working and stated it as working so as you say, I have a case of some sort. If a new tos doesn't work, which will be my final try at getting it working, then I think I'll have to either go via a long drawn out Paypal dispute or chuck it on his doorstep and ask politely for my money back.

Aly. So If I get one of these little convertors and manage to find the correct chip, could you burn me a new tos?

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Greenious » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:27 pm

PaulB wrote:
Greenious wrote:Well, I should have one or two older TOS 4 from upgrading other Falcons. If 4.01 or 4.02 is ok, I can have a look for them.


Thanks Mr Greenious. That would be great if you can supply any falcon tos for me. At least that way I can tell if the current tos chip is the fault or not.


Actually I just remembered that I happen to have a broken F030 mobo stashed away somewhere, which should have a TOS 4.04 chip. :)

Anyway, BEFORE you go looking for a new eprom, check the type of the one you already have in your F030. I've found a small number of falcons which have eproms. Most are equipped with OTP-roms or mask-roms, but a few actually have eproms.

If you have an eprom (with a small window on the top, below the sticker), it can be both erased and reprogrammed.
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby techie_alison » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:39 pm

Don't worry Paul. We'll all get you sorted out. :D

That chip though (or chips). We can confirm if it's a good un. Or alternatively cue Greenious. This could also be something to port over to Atari Age; http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... owforum=20

Compiled listing of Falcon Owners on there too; http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... &hl=falcon

Can you take some good pictures of the motherboard? So that we know what we're looking at etc.

Aly

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... try1238570

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8546&start=45

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pps. and yes, I'd happily drive half way across the country and stay in a hotel to visit this bloke, just for the satisfaction alone. certain eBay sellers piss me off no end. I bought an STE a few years back which was apparently immaculate. it was rusty, yellow, and the keyboard was damaged. he accused me of trying to rip him off!!

ahhhh yes, that's where my PC Speed came from. The one with bent pins.... Not a problem though, just resoldered new 1.27mm pins on it... Seller made no comms during the transaction though.

Reading through your posts Paul. Awwwwwwwww :(

You NEED to hook up with another Falcon user and start swapping bits. It's near impossible on your own without another for reference. :) Don't worry though Paul, we've all been there. We know how you're feeling. My feeling in some ways would be to a chargeback on the guy if he's arsey, he's not an enthusiastic genuine user. And then wait for another with all of the happiness which surrounds it. :D

It's like my Dataman S4 EPROM Programmer / Emulator. I *could* have bought from eBay for £180 odd and with all of it's unknowns. In the end I phoned up the original manufacturer and politely asked if they could have a look around their engineering department to see if they'd got one in a drawer (they're discontinued).. Got one reconditioned and serviced for £250, oh and next day. It arrived, and I keep it in a plastic stat bag. it's my pride and joy. :)
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby PaulB » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:31 am

Thanks for all your help guys. It's really appreciated. If the guy who sold it to me was a bit more like you, perhaps it would have been sorted out already.

Anyway here's two pics of the motherboard.

This one shows the TOS Rom.
Image

This one shows the not so neat clock patch.
Image

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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby Greenious » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:52 am

Ok, your TOS rom is not eprom.

And while I have never seen a neat clock patch on F030, I must admit that that is probably the worst one I've ever seen. And yet this was a low res picture, that doesn't really show all the gore.

Personally, I'd rework the clockpatch, or remove it, before I would blame TOS for the problems.

I suggest you invite Alison for dinner... If she accepts, you wine her, dine her and beg her to rework your falcon with her soldering iron.

And then you send the bill for all this to the ebay seller.
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Re: Wanted: Falcon Tos Chip

Postby ppera » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:03 am

There are EPROMs in plastic case - OTP.
I would not bother much with EPROM adapters. Chances that TOS is bad are not big. And certainly someone will find some old TOS ROM chip for test. There is many other chip, which can be bad.. :(


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