Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

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What modern OS you using with your newer computer ?

Windows XP
2
2%
Windows 7
7
9%
Windows 8, 8.1
2
2%
Windows 10
19
23%
Linux
17
21%
MAC OS
23
28%
Something else
1
1%
I use more than 1 OS
10
12%
 
Total votes: 81

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:49 am

I think that I need to react on some claims written here - namely about that Xerox demonstration and what is related with it: complain about millions of lines of code in modern OS-es.
"There is set of function for manipulating data (In video that I linked there is animation of bouncing ball that can be edited with "predefined" functions for editing bitmaps but at same time you can REPROGRAM and EXPAND these function in realtime!)."
So, how it works ? Is it some genius at Xerox who made magic, or it is lot of code, so code lines ? You can do bouncing ball as simple demo, you can add to it some programmable functions too in it. I seen such SW long time ago. For instance, there was SW package (I don't call it program) named Clarion for DOS. Not by MS, to note. It had code generator in self. And that's actually very much same as that Xerox bragging (where are they on SW market ?) .

Then there was that link to site where says "Personal computing ? 220.000.000 lines of code "
I say yes, that's the only way. For instance there is video compression - HEVC or X265 is very complex, and ecexutable + DLLs (if it is not all integrated in single file) size is 15-25 MB . How much lines of code is in it ? Is it for personal computing ? Indeed, there are many SW packages (most freeware) which use it for video - mostly in purpose to make smaller files, without losing quality. I used it with success - started about 2 years ago - then it was slow for my taste, now I have 6x faster computer (at least with HEVC (ah it would be high efficient video codec)) and it means that I can do something useful: free up space on my hard drives by recoding old videos. In some cases, result was almost unbelievable - 10x shorter file, and quality even better (because I do some extra fixes during process like noise filtering, correcting contrast, brightness ... ) . Typically, you can make some 720p TV episode 3-4x shorter.
Unless it is already done with x265, of course.

Conslusion: same one who wants that SW, pardon, OS do almost everything complains how modern OS-es have too much lines of code.
And how much lines it would be if they add such things as by users programmable functions in realtime ?
The truth is that there is already lot of overhead in modern OS, and in driver SW too, especially graphic card drivers. All it in goal to make usage simpler. And yes, there are some bad things hidden often - what indeed add lines and lines, but that's another story. You just want something impossible: complex things solved simply. No, that works not. Stop watching demos and start programming - I guess you will learn much more in short time.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby mlynn1974 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:30 am

I use more than one OS:

Home laptop: Windows 10 64-bit
Work laptops: Windows Vista (!) 32-bit and Windows 10 64-bit
Email: Window XP. Because Outlook Express doesn't work on Windows 10 and I have 17+ years of email on Outlook Express.
Desktop: Windows 7

The great thing about emulators is they are pretty well written and run on almost all modern versions of Windows without problems.
Sometimes for emulators missing versions of MSVCRT can cause issues but these can easily be installed. I have a zip with all the installers for emulators I use so that I can install them quickly. This includes: STeem, Saint, WinUAE, CCS64, ZXSpin, X128, MAME, KGEN etc.

Android has failed randomly on tablets and phones for me, requiring factory resets. The performance is pretty poor with a 1.3GHz tablet running C64 emulators slower than an old Pentium 2-333MHz.
On the plus side Android runs music players like Droidsound and ZX-Tune really well.
Still got, still working: Atari 4Mb STe, 520STFM, 2.5Mb STF.
Hardware: Cumana CSA 354, Ultimate Ripper, Blitz Turbo, Synchro Express II (US and UK Versions).

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby leech » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:06 am

mlynn1974 wrote:I use more than one OS:

Home laptop: Windows 10 64-bit
Work laptops: Windows Vista (!) 32-bit and Windows 10 64-bit
Email: Window XP. Because Outlook Express doesn't work on Windows 10 and I have 17+ years of email on Outlook Express.
Desktop: Windows 7

The great thing about emulators is they are pretty well written and run on almost all modern versions of Windows without problems.
Sometimes for emulators missing versions of MSVCRT can cause issues but these can easily be installed. I have a zip with all the installers for emulators I use so that I can install them quickly. This includes: STeem, Saint, WinUAE, CCS64, ZXSpin, X128, MAME, KGEN etc.

Android has failed randomly on tablets and phones for me, requiring factory resets. The performance is pretty poor with a 1.3GHz tablet running C64 emulators slower than an old Pentium 2-333MHz.
On the plus side Android runs music players like Droidsound and ZX-Tune really well.


Oh god, do you hate yourself? Ever hear of IMAP?
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby mlynn1974 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:40 am

leech wrote:Oh god, do you hate yourself? Ever hear of IMAP?

I don't hate myself over something as trivial as email but I'd rather have my email stored locally than on a remote server like GMail or Hotmail. The reason? 1) Stored locally I can access it and prepare a reply without an internet connection then send my email when I do have an internet connection and 2) If an ISP decides to stop providing an email service e.g. as Freeserve, Tiscali, ADSL24 and others have done then I still have a copy of my email. I don't trust anyone with my data.
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:56 am

mlynn1974 wrote:I use more than one OS:
...
Android has failed randomly on tablets and phones for me, requiring factory resets. The performance is pretty poor with a 1.3GHz tablet running C64 emulators slower than an old Pentium 2-333MHz.
...

I don't think that is reflects real power ratio. I tested with diverse, modern codec videos, so mostly x264 and x265 (what is pretty demanding) - and it was good - of course partially because lower res. of display. Players are coded/compiled much better than those emulators, I dare to say. Of course they use all cores too. My rough judgment is that 1 core of ARM based CPUs in mobile, tablets has about 60% of modern desktop CPU core power on same clock.
When adding to it that old Pentium 2 needs more cycles for same code than some new CPU, it can mean by me only that C64 emulators were not ported so good.
Although, it is not exactly clear what you mean under poor performance - are there some slowdowns in case of 100% speed (same speed as original HW) ?
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby leech » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:11 am

mlynn1974 wrote:
leech wrote:Oh god, do you hate yourself? Ever hear of IMAP?

I don't hate myself over something as trivial as email but I'd rather have my email stored locally than on a remote server like GMail or Hotmail. The reason? 1) Stored locally I can access it and prepare a reply without an internet connection then send my email when I do have an internet connection and 2) If an ISP decides to stop providing an email service e.g. as Freeserve, Tiscali, ADSL24 and others have done then I still have a copy of my email. I don't trust anyone with my data.


I actually run my own email server for much the same reason, but this way I have the server, the backup, plus whatever cached email on multiple clients. By the way, SMTP doesn't work that way anyhow, you always have it locally, and emails will only send when you have an internet connection, otherwise it sticks in your outbox. If you have a semi decent connection and a spare computer sitting around, I can give you some advice on setting up your own email server.
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby calimero » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:13 am

AtariZoll wrote:When adding to it that old Pentium 2 needs more cycles for same code than some new CPU, it can mean by me only that C64 emulators were not ported so good.
Although, it is not exactly clear what you mean under poor performance - are there some slowdowns in case of 100% speed (same speed as original HW) ?

Maybe someone would find interesting Darek Mihocka (author of Gemulator) GREAT articles on CPU optimization, code executions, in-deep analysis...of Pentium 4: http://www.emulators.com/docs/pentium_1.htm (he also touch Motorola CPU in article and many other terms that are relevant today).
Or you can read his new blog about CPUs "NO EXECUTE!" : http://www.emulators.com/docs/nx01_intro.htm - great read!

Wayne123 wrote: That was a very interesting video, I will watch the other linked ones later today.
Thanks for the links.

I hope you will find videos and IDEAs from Bret Victor also interesting. For start take a look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QJytzcd7Wo

longer but very interesting: "Bret Victor The Future of Programming" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pTEmbeENF4

or choose any from videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ret+victor
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:43 am

Well, Pentium 4 is now history. I remember silly discussions at Benchmark forum. There was some smarthead, total Intel biased, who basically only quoted from Intel propaganda. Intel self realized at one moment that it is bad way - they talked about work at 10GHz for instance. So, needed to make new concept, architecture. For instance P4 based Core Duo at 2.8 GHz is slower than newer CPU concept Core Duo at 1.8 - not to mention need for 2x more power with all heating.
This is why I don't see perspective in that Vampire project. They talk about 1GHz , 68000 based CPU, OK, maybe rather 68040 based one ... Still, it is so obsolete, that will be in best case fast as some Pentium at 300 MHz. Compare it with 4x4 GHz - as something affordable for average people, and you will see that it is damn toooooo slow. Under 3% of 4x4 . On the other side is too fast and incompatible with old SW. So, who will give money for it ? Who will write SW ?
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby leech » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:20 pm

Yeah, the best one could hope for, in my opinion, for TOS/GEM to move forward would probably be something like AROS, where they are reverse engineering the 3.1 version of Amiga workbench on x86, then having an emulation layer in place for legacy software.
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:44 pm

Talking about continuing TOS line on some new architecture - let's say PC, as native OS, running directly, not via emulation (like Aranym) - well, first thing you need to solve is multitasking. Not primitive one as MagiC.
Rewriting ASM parts as BIOS is not too hard - other can even compile. And then what we will get ? Something close in power, usability as Win 95 - not really, much less. Will need to run old SW via emulation, write new APPs ...
Why all it when we have Linux ? What on Earth you can gain ?
Would be just like inventing hot water. Let it as retro. Too much work and money would be needed for making it something competitive. I would go on complete new OS instead - and guess what - it can even be easier to do ...
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby leech » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:07 pm

Ha, yeah that is exactly it. I didn't really think it should move forward.

Once it is ported, then dissected and made 'modern', it would probably become just as bloated as other operating systems. To me, Debian is the most useful operating system around. But I do like my beefed up Falcon, and one day I want to get back into playing around with Calamus. Otherwise polishing up an old operating system to make it look a bit more modern is fun, especially to see what performance you can get out of an old 060.

Note: some could argue that Windows95 is more useful than win10. I mean why can't I kill Cortana, or strip out all the dumb features I will never use to make it lighter?
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:17 pm

leech wrote:...
Note: some could argue that Windows95 is more useful than win10. I mean why can't I kill Cortana, or strip out all the dumb features I will never use to make it lighter?

I removed Win 10 from my both PCs. But Cortana was easy to get rid off. I don't think that it was some load for machine, OS, just was totally useless crap.
Reminding me that there was no any Internet support in Win 95. Main reason was that MS wanted own World net, and worked on satellite grid. That failed, thanx God. Otherwise today MS would leak from every hole in our houses :lol:
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby mlynn1974 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:58 pm

Although, it is not exactly clear what you mean under poor performance - are there some slowdowns in case of 100% speed (same speed as original HW) ?

Mobile C64 does not run at 100% when in landscape orientation on an Acer A3-A10 on Android 4.4.2. It slows down in portrait mode. It slows down when music and rasters are playing at the same time - but it's better than Frodo 64. That class of tablet is still OK for general browsing and excellent as a music player though and the Sega Megadrive emulator runs well on it.

It's quite incredible that an Acer laptop with an Intel N4200, 4Gb RAM, 1Tb disk space, Windows 10, USB 3.0 can be sold for under £200. I got one for £189.99 at Argos in the January sales. The performance is less than an i3 but it runs emulators just great! An N4200 uses 6 Watts of power. A crappy old P4-3GHz Prescott used 105 Watts.

The thing about Microsoft operating systems is that they wrecked Windows a bit by getting rid of Outlook Express, ridiculous licensing of MS Office, reliance on SLIC in the BIOS for licensing (some older motherboards don't support it) and terrible implementation of Windows Updates where it hogs processor time. I want control of when updates are occuring and clear visibility of what it is updating.
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby calimero » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:54 pm

AtariZoll wrote:Well, Pentium 4 is now history. I remember silly discussions at Benchmark forum. There was some smarthead, total Intel biased, who basically only quoted from Intel propaganda.


lol! I remember that!

It was AudioFreak - he eventually got job at Intel (and was banned from Benchmark forum)!
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:24 pm

It was some other guy actually - don't remember name at moment. Not so relevant. Intel mongers were spread everywhere :mrgreen:
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:40 pm

Just watched silly movie Pirates of Silicon Valley (1999) .
Most interesting thing was at the end - Bill Gates bought part of Apple, and actually helped in renewing it after crash about 1998 ... So, dear Apple owners, you are the reason why Bill Gates is the richest man on Planet :mrgreen:

And I seen silly comment of movie at IMDB - second page, middle ,
" Had Kildall made those calls, how different the PC world would look... Microsoft would probably not exist, Digital Research would have licensed CP/M86 to IBM, allowing such things as 16MB of directly addressable memory in the very first PC's, something not available until many years later. We would be GEM based, not Windows based. WordStar, Ashton Tate and Lotus would still probably be the major application suppliers."
Now, I will point on only one mistake here: 16MB of directly addressable memory - that was not possible because of 8088 CPU. Only later, with 80386 CPUs.
So, was not matter of SW, OS. Motorola 68000 was then still buggy, if to believe to writings, just to mention. So IBM went on much cheaper 8088.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby Wayne123 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:56 pm

calimero wrote:

Wayne123 wrote: That was a very interesting video, I will watch the other linked ones later today.
Thanks for the links.

I hope you will find videos and IDEAs from Bret Victor also interesting. For start take a look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QJytzcd7Wo

longer but very interesting: "Bret Victor The Future of Programming" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pTEmbeENF4

or choose any from videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ret+victor



I will watch these when I have some time, I don't know if you linked this video or I found it from one of your links, this video really surprised me when I watched it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY

I remember I used to talk to Darek Mihocka at the Southern California Atari shows, I believe the last time I talked to him he was working for Microsoft.
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby calimero » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:56 am

AtariZoll wrote:Just watched silly movie Pirates of Silicon Valley (1999) .
Most interesting thing was at the end - Bill Gates bought part of Apple, and actually helped in renewing it after crash about 1998 ... So, dear Apple owners, you are the reason why Bill Gates is the richest man on Planet :mrgreen:


Yes...
Complete deal from 1997. was:
1) Microsoft starts again to produce Office for Mac OS and keep in sync with Windows version
2) Apple put Microsoft Internet Explorer as default browser on Mac OS
3) Microsoft invest 150 million in Apple (at time Apple lose almost 100 million per month so this 150 millions surely could not save Apple... but also Apple report 1.2 billion in cash that year! There are many speculation that Microsoft actually invest much more than official 150$ millions!)
4) cross patent licenses agreement which saves Microsoft from multi-billion dollar lawsuits ("Apple had nothing left to sue over, and Microsoft had nothing left to violate.")

More here: http://itlaw.wikia.com/wiki/Apple_v._Sa ... sco_Canyon
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:11 am

My point was that people obsessed with conspirations claim often complete false things. I can not prove that some event happened differently. I was not there. But when we are at technical details - yes, often.
Need to add that complete 'what would be' talk is so stupid. What I rather think is: Bill Gates would find another way. DR was not that good as some people think. Look TOS - it is far from some top SW, especially on that level (main OS for home computers). On top of it they were slow with development.
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby calimero » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:14 am

Wayne123 wrote: I will watch these when I have some time, I don't know if you linked this video or I found it from one of your links, this video really surprised me when I watched it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJDv-zdhzMY

:)
I watch it. It is really "mother f all demos" since we still do not have implemented all things from 1968. Douglas Engelbart demo.

Many tend to celebrate Douglas Engelbart as man who invented mouse (superficial statement) easily disregarding how well integrated NLS was. We today have only disconnected parts of his NLS like multiuser realtime interface in Google spreadsheets instead to be a SYSTEM WIDE feature, then we do not have instances at all but rather have copy&paste abomination (copy&paste is greatest sin of all time in computer history: losing information of provenance on data!)... at the end, we are far, far away from what NLS was. And I am not sure if we ever get there in this crude computer world.

(btw Xerox and Bob Taylor was responsible for disruption of Dougs NLS; Robert Bob Taylor took majority of engineers from NLS to Xerox PARC to make typewriters out of computers to boost Xerox sales of laser printers)

Wayne123 wrote: I remember I used to talk to Darek Mihocka at the Southern California Atari shows, I believe the last time I talked to him he was working for Microsoft.

Yes, Derek switch few times jobs between Intel and Microsoft... he works on QEMU now if I am not mistaking...
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby calimero » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:04 am

AtariZoll wrote:My point was that people obsessed with conspirations claim often complete false things. I can not prove that some event happened differently. I was not there.

This is exactly one thing that computers could improve if they implement and integrate better metadata (as e.g. Ted Nelson suggested)! OS should remember who type what, when type it, what and when some data was changed and by whom (much like wikipedia today)... this metadata should be recorded for data (almost at character level) and NOT on file level (hence: here is origin of my objection on stupidity of filetypes idea)! And most important thing: there can not exist "copy and paste" function as Xerox invented it, and we used it even today, but rather system of referencing (instancing) so provenance of data is always preserved!

On this way, you could much easy and much better grasp what happened in past!

It is great problem of our civilization (how we transfer/present/grasp events), e.g. Vilém Flusser talks and write a lot about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWcX3XQyukg


AtariZoll wrote:But when we are at technical details - yes, often.

In code (technical details), we do not have this problem :) and it is much easier.
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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:31 pm

OK, I think that we went pretty much off topic - so please open new thread about metadata, what would be if, and such things. We should stick here to what is really done and talk about it.
Just to say my opinion about said in last couple post by Calimero:
You can call it whatever you want - files, data, sections, characters .... all it must be recorded for further usage, permanent. And that is possible only 1 way: you write it in some segment of storage media. We could do addressing of it purely by loc on media - like it is on sector 23568935, length is 112 sectors. Dear user, please remember it for your later usage of that data. And data is always binary and never is anything else. Only people knowing not what talk can say "character level" . So, we have filenames instead numbers, we have folders, etc. The point is to separate different data and make some hierarchical structure there. Filetypes actually have nothing with storing data - that's only help for user and OS - you don't need to open file, access file at all to see its type, nothing else.
Yes, there is need for copy and paste - I use it a lot, and I don't care for origin, or I know it very well, but that info is completely useless in given circumstances. How my txt file would look if it had instead copied text some links - then it would be html without any use, need.

When you do programming you use diverse files, mostly own creations to use own, old routines - there is help in assemblers in simple way - will look for it first in Include directory - so programmer don't need to specify full path. Some metadata, what is on character level, and holds some kind of log - who changed it, when, etc - that's ridiculous. Source files of ASM, C, Pascal are always on 'character level' - pure text. If I want to know when, why .... - I will put there comments. Not expecting it from OS, because I will do it always better. And OS gives little help with time stamps in file descriptor in DIR. And there is lot more in modern assemblers, compilers - conditional usage of segments and like ....
So, all this talk about what would be better is total crap. There is nothing new at all. All it is already invented and used. You need to learn basics first, like what is binary data, what is character data - then will see what is file type actually. Really, you want to say what would be better with so low knowledge ? - sorry for harsh words, but this is now really boring and waste of time. Please do not continue here ....
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby calimero » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:54 pm

And there we are:

- you are perfectly happy with computer world
- and I am perfectly disappointed :)

I strongly disagree with "All it is already invented", take a look at Ted Nelson Zig-Zag structure:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEj9vqVvHPc

computer world is in its infancy! There is waste pool of ideas (even from 60s) that are still not implemented!
("Smart Contracts" was firstly noted in 60s by CIA and we got first widely implementation in 2008. in form of BitCoins!)
using Atari since 1986.http://wet.atari.orghttp://milan.kovac.cc/atari/software/ ・ Atari Falcon030/CT63/SV ・ Atari STe ・ Atari Mega4/MegaFile30/SM124 ・ Amiga 1200/PPC ・ Amiga 500 ・ C64 ・ ZX Spectrum ・ RPi ・ MagiC! ・ MiNT 1.18 ・ OS X

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Re: Modern OS-es, pros and contras, experiences with ..

Postby AtariZoll » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:07 pm

I think that you should look this thread, and maybe rather post there: http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32783
Famous Schrodinger's cat hypothetical experiment says that cat is dead or alive until we open box and see condition of poor animal, which deserved better logic. Cat is always in some certain state - regardless from is observer able or not to see what the state is.


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