Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:47 pm

calimero wrote:
dlfrsilver wrote:A standard Amiga 2000 with a multisync monitor can perfectly use for productivity use a resolution of 1280x512 which is far superior to what even the high res ST monochrome screen can do. Of course, in this configuration the screen flickering doesn't apply.

how so?


It called the super hi-res productivity mode, 2 bitplanes, 2 colors. Made exclusively for professional use like PAO or word processing or PCB creation.
(can't be used for games).

MultiSync monitor means that it will display 15KHz horizontal resolution and 15KHz is not enough for rock stable picture like on e.g. SM124 but it is enough for 60Hz vertical refresh rate.


Multisync monitors for Amiga allow display with no flickering. The flickering on standard amiga monitors is due to the refresh rate, not adequate to the resolution used.

even worse, 512 lines is interlaced mod, right?


It's not worse, it's like it is. And you're right, it's interlaced.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:58 pm

Retrogamer_ST wrote:We're talking Amiga 500, right?

Else you have to compare to Falcon.


The Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000 have the same chips inside, a little diff for Amiga 2000, which has the super hi-res productivity mode.

An A500 max res is 640x512. You know the game lemmings ? the screen showing the level in miniature as well as the Level information is in 640x512 interlaced, and it's not flickering.

I was not talking about the A1200, which has an even higher super hi-res mode (1448x576).

The A2000 is basically a workstation model based on the A500.

And anyway the Falcon is limited to 640x480. Even the A500 is going above that :)
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby calimero » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:02 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:A standard Amiga 2000 with a multisync monitor can perfectly use for productivity use a resolution of 1280x512 which is far superior to what even the high res ST monochrome screen can do.

dlfrsilver wrote:The Amiga 500 and Amiga 2000 have the same chips inside, a little diff for Amiga 2000, which has the super hi-res productivity mode.

and standard Amiga 2000 (from 1987.) had OSC and not ECS!
1280 x 512 video mode is available only on ECS available in 1990.

dlfrsilver wrote:
calimero wrote:
MultiSync monitor means that it will display 15KHz horizontal resolution and 15KHz is not enough for rock stable picture like on e.g. SM124 but it is enough for 60Hz vertical refresh rate.

Multisync monitors for Amiga allow display with no flickering. The flickering on standard amiga monitors is due to the refresh rate, not adequate to the resolution used.

I am still not sure how this is possible?
First, how different is "Multisync monitors for Amiga" than other MultiSync monitors? (MultiSync is monitor that can display picture from different range, usually from 15-31KHz). Amiga 2000 can not produce 31KHz video signal without scandoubler hardware add-on so it output 15KHz signal and how this can be better on "Multisync monitors for Amiga"? (what is that anyway?!?)

there were some >70Hz video modes on ECS Amigas: http://amiga.lychesis.net/knowledge/ScreenModes.html
but they are Euro72: 640×400 @ 72Hz (up to 4 colors64 color palette) - only this could be comparable to ST high-res mode.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby purpleeagle01 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:35 pm

that's all right what you write for me are Atari computer, a passion, a feeling and a lot of memories and I could not imagine a life without them.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Retrogamer_ST » Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:45 pm

calimero wrote:there were some >70Hz video modes on ECS Amigas: http://amiga.lychesis.net/knowledge/ScreenModes.html but they are Euro72: 640×400 @ 72Hz (up to 4 colors64 color palette) - only this could be comparable to ST high-res mode.


Are we still talking scanlines?

If so, it's not even close to SM 124.

I read about the scan doubler hardware and the 15 Khz mode on NEC monitors in some forum threads.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:01 pm

and standard Amiga 2000 (from 1987.) had OSC and not ECS! 1280 x 512 video mode is available only on ECS available in 1990.


Check the amiga hardware chart here :

http://amiga.resource.cx/mod/a500.html

EDIT : Heh seems i was wrong about A500 maximum resolution ! it supports up to 1280x512 in super hi-res :lol: just checl the table of resolution on the amiga hardware resource :lol:

And the Euro36 is indeed the monitor needed to display correctly in 1280x512.

You have the A2024 which allows to display 1024x1024 in resolution.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby calimero » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:19 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
and standard Amiga 2000 (from 1987.) had OSC and not ECS! 1280 x 512 video mode is available only on ECS available in 1990.


Check the amiga hardware chart here :

http://amiga.resource.cx/mod/a500.html

EDIT : Heh seems i was wrong about A500 maximum resolution ! it supports up to 1280x512 in super hi-res :lol: just checl the table of resolution on the amiga hardware resource :lol:

when was the first time when you got Amiga?
it looks like that you do not know nothing about it
and it looks like that you do not know to read.
From link that you posted: http://amiga.resource.cx/mod/a500.html
...Amiga 500+ (+ means it is ECS, ECS is from 1990!) had 1280 x 512. Amiga 500 (without +) is OSC and it had 640x512
same goes to Amiga 2000: until 1991. model it has OSC (640x512). Only in 1991. there was C model od Amiga 2000 which had ECS and 1280 x 512.

dlfrsilver wrote:And the Euro36 is indeed the monitor needed to display correctly in 1280x512.

Euro36 is not a monitor but a display mode.


please, can you go now and shoot yourself in head? :mrgreen:
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Retrogamer_ST » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:23 pm

One of the reasons for the success of the Atari ST in the MIDI market was its clear, high-resolution display. While Macs were too expensive, and PCs had a shoddy green text on black display, Atari users were enjoying high-quality, monochrome graphics with all their benefits.
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_ar ... notes.html


Amiga was totally out of the question to use for such things, no matter what resolution. And yes, neither PC or MAC had built in midi ports as far as i know.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:34 pm

when was the first time when you got Amiga? it looks like that you do not know nothing about it and it looks like that you do not know to read.
From link that you posted: http://amiga.resource.cx/mod/a500.html


I think you're the one who can't read :

the table clears states :

"The A500 (OCS chip set) and A500 Plus (ECS chip set) support the following screen modes:

PAL, interlaced 1280×512 50 Hz, 15.60 kHz

So this concerns both OCS AND ECS machines not only ECS as you seem to think.

...Amiga 500+ (+ means it is ECS, ECS is from 1990!) had 1280 x 512. Amiga 500 (without +) is OCS and it had 640x512
same goes to Amiga 2000: until 1991. model it has OSC (640x512). Only in 1991. there was C model od Amiga 2000 which had ECS and 1280 x 512.


This is false. The website clearly indicate that both OCS and ECS have the super hi-res productivity mode.

dlfrsilver wrote:And the Euro36 is indeed the monitor needed to display correctly in 1280x512.

Euro36 is not a monitor but a display mode.[/quote]

You're right on this matter. It's indeed the display modes.

please, can you go now and shoot yourself in head? :mrgreen:


After you my friend, you need it better than i :mrgreen: And don't forgot the silencer and the handkerchief ! :lol:
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Retrogamer_ST » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:56 pm

dlfrsilver

Amiga couldn't display anything that matched the clear, crisp and rock steady display of an Atari SM 124. Not even MAC could. Not even PC. Besides that, the colour monitors in that time was nothing compared to a good monochrome screen, and Atari had the best.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby AtariZoll » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:21 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:...
PAL, interlaced 1280×512 50 Hz, 15.60 kHz
...


You self answered on it. Key word here is "interlaced" . If you don't know what it is and why it is not good for some CAD or desktop publishing please
spare us of your Amiga biasismus :D
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby calimero » Fri Aug 21, 2015 7:51 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:I think you're the one who can't read :
the table clears states :
"The A500 (OCS chip set) and A500 Plus (ECS chip set) support the following screen modes:
PAL, interlaced 1280×512 50 Hz, 15.60 kHz
So this concerns both OCS AND ECS machines not only ECS as you seem to think.

you are really annoyingly stubborn!
we already have disagreement since you present yourself as knowledgable person but you are not! (we already see how you can be stubborn in "Shadow of the beast on ST" thread; your main problem is that you think that you know everything but that is impossible per se).

ECS is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Enhanced_Chip_Set

"Notable improvements were the Super Agnus and the Hires Denise chips. The ECS Denise chip offers Productivity (640×480 non-interlaced) and SuperHires (1280×200 or 1280×256) display modes (also available in interlaced mode). Essentially, a 35 ns pixel mode was added"

OCS is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_Chip_Set

"There are two horizontal graphics resolutions, "lowres" with 140 ns pixels and "hires" with 70 ns pixels. This makes the display 320 or 640 pixels wide without overscan."

so ECS and OCS does NOT have same screen modes.

let me drawn for you:

Screen Shot 2015-08-21 at 21.55.58.png
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:56 pm

OH GOD ! I'm wrong, and you're right there again pal.

Indeed i must have been drunk or whatever :( So i must apologize for that matter.

Indeed i was right at first when i said the A500 max res was 640x512.... :x Shame on me !

(we already see how you can be stubborn in "Shadow of the beast on ST" thread; your main problem is that you think that you know everything but that is impossible per se).


Don't start me up about Beast. The ST even STE can't cope with such demanding games. On the opposite side, Beast 2 was less hardware demanding, and the ST version while slow, is very good.

You must face it, some games are impossible per se to convert on Atari ST, it's just not a matter of game market or computer market. The machine itself is not made for complicated or complex games.

The STE, not even the ST have any sprite abilities. The STE blitter is very rudimentary, not comparable from near or far to the one used in the Amiga computers. The ST/E has no chip able to mimic good enough nor accurately enough what the copper can achieve on palette changes (for instance, it's the responsible behind the 128 colors on screen for Beast), look how crap the copper emulator based on Timer B was on ST beast.

So on this specific matter who's the most stubborn, you or me ? :coffe:

You really think that a machine (the ST or STE) which has to preshift and precalc the backgrounds and the sprites in a game can measure really against a machine or a hardware which is accelerated and having custom chip assistance on backgrounds, playfields and sprites ?

Even with an 8Mhz 68000, the ST can't follow up. You need an ST or STE with 2mb of ram and a nastily soupped-up 68000 (more than 10 Mhz) to do what a simple A500 with 512kb of Ram with a 68K @ 7Mhz can do.

You're stuck with a low frame rate like 10 to 25 fps, when most games run at 50 fps on the miggy. And rare games with 50 fps on ST/STE have terrible drawbacks, like very small sprites (enchanted lands springs to mind) or a very slow scroll.

Face it, if the ST is the most accurate computer for MIDI (and it is), we know which machine was above for all the remaining (Color palettes, video, animations, sprites, scrolling, I/O, and so on) hardware wise.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Retrogamer_ST » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:02 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:OH GOD ! I'm wrong, and you're right there again pal.

Indeed i must have been drunk or whatever :( So i must apologize for that matter.

Indeed i was right at first when i said the A500 max res was 640x512.... :x Shame on me !

(we already see how you can be stubborn in "Shadow of the beast on ST" thread; your main problem is that you think that you know everything but that is impossible per se).


Don't start me up about Beast. The ST even STE can't cope with such demanding games. On the opposite side, Beast 2 was less hardware demanding, and the ST version while slow, is very good.

You must face it, some games are impossible per se to convert on Atari ST, it's just not a matter of game market or computer market. The machine itself is not made for complicated or complex games.

The STE, not even the ST have any sprite abilities. The STE blitter is very rudimentary, not comparable from near or far to the one used in the Amiga computers. The ST/E has no chip able to mimic good enough nor accurately enough what the copper can achieve on palette changes (for instance, it's the responsible behind the 128 colors on screen for Beast), look how crap the copper emulator based on Timer B was on ST beast.

So on this specific matter who's the most stubborn, you or me ? :coffe:

You really think that a machine (the ST or STE) which has to preshift and precalc the backgrounds and the sprites in a game can measure really against a machine or a hardware which is accelerated and having custom chip assistance on backgrounds, playfields and sprites ?

Even with an 8Mhz 68000, the ST can't follow up. You need an ST or STE with 2mb of ram and a nastily soupped-up 68000 (more than 10 Mhz) to do what a simple A500 with 512kb of Ram with a 68K @ 7Mhz can do.

You're stuck with a low frame rate like 10 to 25 fps, when most games run at 50 fps on the miggy. And rare games with 50 fps on ST/STE have terrible drawbacks, like very small sprites (enchanted lands springs to mind) or a very slow scroll.

Face it, if the ST is the most accurate computer for MIDI (and it is), we know which machine was above for all the remaining (Color palettes, video, animations, sprites, scrolling, I/O, and so on) hardware wise.


Exactly why i started this thread.

This is how many "compare" the computers.

Amiga has Jay Miners custom chips and is good for gaming, demos and graphics but it won't even touch ST for serious use because of several factors where a way superior screen and built in midi ports is just two of them. ;)

Besides that, the competitor was not Amiga, it was MAC.

ST was never built to be a games machine. Not to say that games can't be good on ST too off course.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Frank B » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:07 pm

ECS had the 1280 * 512 4 colour mode with a 64 colour palette. It's interlaced.
Page 296 of the hardware reference manual, "New Mode Resolutions
The enhanced Denise chip provides the new SuperHires mode with up to 1280 horizontal pixels per scanline on a standard NTSC or PAL display."

Controlled via bit 6 of BPLCON0.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Frank B » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:13 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
The STE blitter is very rudimentary, not comparable from near or far to the one used in the Amiga computers. .


That's rubbish I'm afraid.

The STE blitter is actually really good. It's a superset of bitblit with extensions.
It can do several things the Amiga one can't:

1) Smudge mode bitplane hflip mirroring in 4 passes
2) Smudge mode brush scaling
3) full 24 bit range. It can blit from ROM. 16 mb range on the Falcon trumps 2 meg on AGA. 4 meg plus ROM access on the STE
4) Much wider blit range than Amiga 64k words by 64k lines
5) Modify hardware IO registers.
6) Protect the middle columns of the destination in addition to the first and last.

It also has some nice optimisations not present in the Amiga. NFSR if the source is aligned exactly for example.
Why on earth would the STE have to preshift anything. What do you think a blitter is for? It does have a barrel shifter you know :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln8oWC2E8SI is a video of a 50hz platformer on the STe. It's using the blitter for scrolling the screen and drawing the sprites. That's 50 hz *without* using hardware scrolling. Look at the halftone screen wipe around the 4 minute mark. If you think the ST blitter isn't powerful you're mental :)
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Frank B » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:16 pm

I should add

7) Programmable Src X and Dst X inc registers. The Amiga hard codes them to 2 OR -2 respectively for descending blits. That means the ST blitter would be perfectly at home on any Amiga screen layout. The Amiga blitter can't cope well with the interleaved format of the ST. The ST one is more flexible here.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby dlfrsilver » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:32 pm

Frank B wrote:I should add

7) Programmable Src X and Dst X inc registers. The Amiga hard codes them to 2 OR -2 respectively for descending blits. That means the ST blitter would be perfectly at home on any Amiga screen layout. The Amiga blitter can't cope well with the interleaved format of the ST. The ST one is more flexible here.


Indeed it doesn't cope well with the interleaved format of the ST, because it's not his own format. And whatever frank, even Steve Bak when the STE was released was completely not amazed by what it had to propose.

The STE lacks all the other things the amiga has. What's the point of having an hard scroll when you don't have any chip for the sprites ?

Can you believe the STE has no hard sprites registers to play with ?

The real contender for me against the A500 is the mega STE, which out of its blitter, has a soupped-up 16 Mhz clocked 68000. That's the real deal.
This Atari computer had the guts to do games like Beast quite easily and better than what we saw on regular ST/STE.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Frank B » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:40 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:
Frank B wrote:I should add


Indeed it doesn't cope well with the interleaved format of the ST, because it's not his own format. And whatever frank, even Steve Bak when the STE was released was completely not amazed by what it had to propose.

The STE lacks all the other things the amiga has. What's the point of having an hard scroll when you don't have any chip for the sprites ?

Can you believe the STE has no hard sprites registers to play with ?

The real contender for me against the A500 is the mega STE, which out of its blitter, has a soupped-up 16 Mhz clocked 68000. That's the real deal.
This Atari computer had the guts to do games like Beast quite easily and better than what we saw on regular ST/STE.


I don't think sprites are that impressive to be honest. The ST blitter is fast enough to draw 30 32*30 2 plane objects fully masked per 50hz frame.
You could get 12 of those in 4 planes in a pal frame with background restoral.

There are far too many restrictions on Amiga sprites. If you want to learn what they are read the HRM. I'd rather have a blitter. Steve bak never targeted the ST blitter in any of his games. Remember the ST blitter didn't debut with the STE. It was there much earlier and can be added to virtually any ST.
It's a nice piece of hardware. Different than the Amiga one but still very nicely designed.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Retrogamer_ST » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:42 pm

dlfrsilver

It's all about games right? And it's all about scanlines and colours, sprites and games?

That's all most people can compare.

Because the serious side of the two computers, isn't even a competition. ST was superior in every way you can think of as a business machine. And that was the purpose ST once was created for. A rival to MAC.

Even Commodore themselves was ashamed of the games machine label when they first advertised Amiga as an "all-purpose business machine". ;)

Amiga was anything else then a serious business machine, it even lacked a proper screen.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Frank B » Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:55 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:The STE lacks all the other things the amiga has. What's the point of having an hard scroll when you don't have any chip for the sprites ?


Well the point is obvious! Without hardware scroll on an ST you have to bit shift up to 32000 bytes to move the screen by one pixel horizontally.
Even for a vertical scrolling game you'd have to use the CPU to move 160*199 (31,840 bytes) per frame. That's if you don't sync scroll.

With hardware scrolling you have to set 3 bytes. 8 bits of high, medium and low screen addresses.
To put that into figures that's 10,613 times more efficient than using the CPU alone.
That number gets much larger when horizontal scrolling is factored in!
You have to set 5 bytes to do that on the STE. High, Medium, low, linewidth and hscroll registers.

It's feasible to do fast games without hardware sprites. If you want to do a fast scrolling game it's a lot harder without hardware scrolling!
That said there is at least one 1 50 hz game on the STE which uses the ST blitter for everything, including the scrolling! Roger IIRC.

Seriously. Read the Amiga hardware reference manual. You'll learn a lot about the machine.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby calimero » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:35 pm

dlfrsilver wrote:OH GOD ! I'm wrong, and you're right there again pal.

like always.
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby Retrogamer_ST » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:48 am

Retrogamer_ST wrote:dlfrsilver

It's all about games right? And it's all about scanlines and colours, sprites and games?

That's all that most people can compare.

Because the serious side of the two computers, isn't even a competition. ST was superior in every way you can think of as a business machine. And that was the purpose ST once was created for. A rival to MAC.

Even Commodore themselves was ashamed of the games machine label when they first advertised Amiga as an "all-purpose business machine". ;)

Amiga was anything else then a serious business machine, it even lacked a proper screen.


Even if ST was very much about games too when the computer got more popular, ST kept it's use as a business machine all the time, unlike Amiga. There was magazines aimed for the serious user only without a single game review in sight. Just reviews of databases, spreadsheets, word processors, midi sequencing or DTP packages. At first it wasn't even possible to hook up Atari ST to a regular TV and the computer was bundled with a monitor.

And even if ST wasn't built to be a games computer, it could run games pretty well, don't you think?

And finally dlfrsilver

If you love Commodore? You should really love Atari ST, not even Mr Commodore himself was behind this awesome computer but lots of ex Commodore employees as well. The father and lead designer of Atari ST was a former C64 designer. And if you don't like Atari, you don't like Amiga for sure because all custom chips in Amiga was invented by an ex Atari employee. Amiga was more similar to Atari 8bit then ST ever was.

The best thing would be to stop being a blind Amiga fan boy and have a realistic look at both computers. Both Atari ST and Amiga were great computers for it's time even if they were very different. One aimed to be a business machine while the other was more a games machine.

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christos
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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby christos » Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:08 am

Frank B wrote:That said there is at least one 1 50 hz game on the STE which uses the ST blitter for everything, including the scrolling! Roger IIRC.

Seriously. Read the Amiga hardware reference manual. You'll learn a lot about the machine.


I think Roger is running at 25 fps.

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Re: Atari ST, the missunderstood computer

Postby dlfrsilver » Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:30 am

Retrogamer_ST wrote:
It's all about games right? And it's all about scanlines and colours, sprites and games?

That's all that most people can compare.

Because the serious side of the two computers, isn't even a competition. ST was superior in every way you can think of as a business machine. And that was the purpose ST once was created for. A rival to MAC.

Even Commodore themselves was ashamed of the games machine label when they first advertised Amiga as an "all-purpose business machine". ;)


Commodore failed on that matter. They should have pushed the machine more on the business side of things, but they didn't, and the software companies didn't really too, out of the Graphic, musical tools.

Because the Amiga was the computer on which doing video, titling, genlocking, subtitling films and series, TV advertisements, TV announcements, special video effects, space data management (NASA) to name a few.

Wordperfect was a great Amiga professional tool for text processing, Deluxe Paint was the best graphic tool, and the IFF format is still in Adobe Photoshop to this day, 3D raytracing with Sculpt 3D when raytracing was only available to SGI workstations.

Cinema 4D and Lightwave were also Amiga professional softwares, very expensive, and still sold on PC to this day.

The Amiga was also the best computer for CAD (computer aided design).

Well i won't cite them all, but check here :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_pro ... y_software

And you will see that the Amiga had the huge list and abilities for Productivity use. The Amiga 500 was mainly targeted for home use. But the other models like the A2000,2500,3000 and higher were used for productivity.

So you can't say for a fact and rule that the Amiga was only a game console as a whole, it's plainly wrong.

Amiga was anything else then a serious business machine, it even lacked a proper screen.


It's not that it lacked a proper screen. There were proper screens, but at a price ! That was the main idea behind the amiga, it's better than the ST, but you will have to pay more, because when you want quality you must pay.

It's the same today. You want quality ? You pay higher prices. You want to pay less ? You'll get inferior quality. That's how the business world works.

What you got depend of the price you consent to pay.

Well, the main problem on Amiga was the price of things. For this higher price, you got something better.

Look, just about hard drives. I have a GVP II series SCSI hard drive module. It costed 3990 francs when released. The price of an Amiga 500, almost.

It was clearly VERY expensive, but for such a price what do you get ?

* ability to put inside 8 mb of fast ram,
* put a PC board inside (for code developpement as it seems)

On the performance side, the transfer rate for the hard drive is 3,6Mb/s in standard. Not even the SH305 from Atari i owned on the atari ST was able to fork out datas at this speed, nor the ultrasatan to this very day.

Even if ST was very much about games too when the computer got more popular, ST kept it's use as a business machine all the time, unlike Amiga. There was magazines aimed for the serious user only without a single game review in sight. Just reviews of databases, spreadsheets, word processors, midi sequencing or DTP packages. At first it wasn't even possible to hook up Atari ST to a regular TV and the computer was bundled with a monitor.

And even if ST wasn't built to be a games computer, it could run games pretty well, don't you think?


The games it can run nicely are the ones like navy moves, or Twinworld for instance, or Prince of Persia (for which Microids have specially coded an ST version with nicer graphics instead of the Dan gorlin port from PC, errkk). Games with original ideas, game for which i have still a fond memory. I got them on Atari ST before having them on Amiga.

Mostly games simples, with small sprites. Like 8 bit machines. An Amstrad CPC demo coder told me it was easier to make a good hard scroll
on CPC than on ST, because even the CPC has a video chip allowing to do it in hard (CRTC to name it).

In the same veins, Wings of Death is great on ST, but so pale and so average on Amiga, it just can't compete with Hybris and Battle Squadron, not minding Project-X or many other shooters....

Mega Typhoon, a shooter, running on A500 can pull out 120 sprites at the same time on screen, with a 50 fps scrolling.

And finally dlfrsilver

If you love Commodore? You should really love Atari ST, not even Mr Commodore himself was behind this awesome computer but lots of ex Commodore employees as well. The father and lead designer of Atari ST was a former C64 designer. And if you don't like Atari, you don't like Amiga for sure because all custom chips in Amiga was invented by an ex Atari employee. Amiga was more similar to Atari 8bit then ST ever was.


I don't like Commodore, i like a machine for what it can give and bring. Jay Miner was no more at Atari, when the custom chips were made. He told Atari to cluck off, they wanted not them, as a result he called it quits. I don't like Atari either.

I only have memories about some games i played on the ST and that's all. I'm not interested by the machines stories, only what they can do or not.

About the C64 designer, this could explaining that. Both ST and C64 have crap PSUs. The C64 because the PSU when it dies kills the C64 with it, because it has no overvoltage protection, but the same happens too in the ST. As soon as the capacitors fails or leak, the current is doing serious harm to the chips on the motherboard.

The best thing would be to stop being a blind Amiga fan boy and have a realistic look at both computers. Both Atari ST and Amiga were great computers for it's time even if they were very different. One aimed to be a business machine while the other was more a games machine.


I'm not a blinded Amiga fan boy. I just loved how much the machine could do aside the ST, with its cheap GEM desktop. For sure, i never was the guy doing MIDI or music, nor the guy doing PAO. I wanted to get the overall best machine, and it was the Amiga. I had the opportunities to use both of them, the ST first, and the Amiga a bit later on. When i saw the difference between both, there was no doubt, i had to get an amiga (i got an A600 with 2mb of ram in November 1992). A chance for me, i knew an engineer which was using its amiga for serious use (games never interested him), as well as its wife. And indeed, i saw that the amiga could run good productivity softwares, not counting the big amount of programs made by small authors (Aminet), and also Public Domain which were able to do great things. These people never had an Amiga harddrive, they had 2mb of ram and a second disk drive. Aside that, the ST tools/GUIs looked to me as gadgets, with repulsing interface in 4 colors. The amiga was more modular than the ST was, also in term of software abilities (unix based command line, ability to make your own script files).

The Amiga 500 was a game machine. But it was not the only model, and most the others were dedicated to software development and serious use. So your statement is wrong on this matter.
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