Best 3D ST games??

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galvatron1983
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Best 3D ST games??

Postby galvatron1983 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:29 pm

I keep hearing that the ST could produce impressive polygon graphics for its time, sometimes eclipsing the Amiga. Could anyone give me some examples of ST games that show off the polygon pushing power of the ST?
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby christos » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:36 pm

They are mostly those in common with the amiga,
nsp, hunter, epic, frontier, mercenary etc

You could check zero 5 if you have an STE.

Forgot: Interphase and Starglider 2
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby nativ » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:12 pm

demowise STNICC 2000? and Synergy spring to mind
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby keops » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:28 pm


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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby christos » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:49 pm

Vroom is mostly 2d isn't it? Just a few polygons here and there and mostly scaled sprites.
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby Zogging Hell » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:12 am

galvatron1983 wrote:I keep hearing that the ST could produce impressive polygon graphics for its time, sometimes eclipsing the Amiga. Could anyone give me some examples of ST games that show off the polygon pushing power of the ST?


I think it depends what the game is doing (presuming you want to see the difference), I think almost all 3D games are slightly faster (and I hasten to add slightly faster!) from my experience (based on my limited A500 library), however depending on the style of game you may not notice much of a difference. The ones you really want to try are the ones that have to move lots of 3D data quickly so I would suggest flight sims (I have a very hazy memory that F29 might be quicker on the Amiga though, but can't be sure of that) and some of those tank games (M1 Tank Platoon for example) would be a good place to start.
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby bid » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:45 pm

There have been various arguments for Amiga vs Atari ST.

But in terms of 3D polygon power, the ST was actually faster than the Amiga marginally.

You can see this in in games like F1GP ... And there are videos of the ST vs the Amiga

Also "No second prize" here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgVKGsbn3hA

Also Geoff Cramonds "Stunt Car Racer"

The reason the ST was a little better was that it runs at 8Mhz, and the Amiga at something like 7.1Mhz due to its crazy interfacing with custom graphics and sound chips.

3D games were always software driven, and there is no graphics hardware or acceleration from the Amiga custom chips (beside 16 extra colours, and 2d sprites). So the 3D games on the Atari often had a better framerate.

Great 3D games on the Atari to try are the 1st ever "Sandbox" type game. "Hunter" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_(video_game)

Now thats a great 3D game. And like a 1991 version of Grand Theft Auto lol. Its great! ... Like GTA you can get in many vehicles, including helecopter. Make sure that you get a parachute. Then if you crash, you can get away on a primitive 3D bicycle!! ... Do it! 8)
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby simonsunnyboy » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:42 pm

No Second Prize is good to look for decent 3D and graphics in general. Playability sucks though :cry:
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby christos » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:59 pm

simonsunnyboy wrote:No Second Prize is good to look for decent 3D and graphics in general. Playability sucks though :cry:


You got to be kidding right? NSP is a solid 99% in playability! Even if you don't like motorcycles
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby Zogging Hell » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:07 pm

simonsunnyboy wrote:No Second Prize is good to look for decent 3D and graphics in general. Playability sucks though :cry:


I thought that was Team Suzuki? :lol:
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby mc6809e » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:25 pm

bid wrote:There have been various arguments for Amiga vs Atari ST.

But in terms of 3D polygon power, the ST was actually faster than the Amiga marginally.

You can see this in in games like F1GP ... And there are videos of the ST vs the Amiga

Also "No second prize" here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgVKGsbn3hA

Also Geoff Cramonds "Stunt Car Racer"

The reason the ST was a little better was that it runs at 8Mhz, and the Amiga at something like 7.1Mhz due to its crazy interfacing with custom graphics and sound chips.

3D games were always software driven, and there is no graphics hardware or acceleration from the Amiga custom chips (beside 16 extra colours, and 2d sprites). So the 3D games on the Atari often had a better framerate.



Man, I loved Stunt Car Racer!

And you're right about the ST often being faster than the Amiga with 3d games due to the clock rate difference. It takes about 9 multiplies per vertex to transform a scene. That's about 600 cycles per point and that tends to consume most of the processing time. There are situations where the Amiga can be faster, but it takes a lot of work. A programmer must interleave the CPU's multiply instructions with the blitter's line draws and area fills so that the two operations occur simultaneously. It's not easy at all. It requires some of the same skills used in writing multi-threaded software.

BTW, the Amiga's clock rate wasn't due to craziness of the custom chips. It was set to be a multiple of the NTSC color burst frequency. This made things like genlocking (video overlay) a little easier. It also let them use standard 150-ns DRAM for memory without violating signal setup and hold times (which is something that happens on the ST to get it to run at 8MHz).

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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby bid » Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:27 pm

Interesting stuff mc6809e ! :D

I got started in designing in 3D using the Atari ST, and I was even using it at university in 1998 lol!! ... I was poor, and that machine served me for over 10 years, with only a 512kb memory upgrade that I paid about £5 for. ... The simms were out of an old PC. lol

I was amazed at what it could you. In those days people did more with less. And I think thats why people still enjoy making demos, and seeing what they can do within these limits.

It is a shame that the technology was not continued. I am no fan of my power hungry and expensive PC, which keeps overheating and breaking down. Maybe the advent of mobile devices and microcontrollers may lead us back along the right path.

The game "Hunter", I think was my favorite. This, if you have not played it, was like Grand Theft Auto and in something like 1989!! ... Just exploring a massive landscape, and jumping on bikes, into tanks, helecopters and cars. Real 3D, a lot of fun, and very open ended. Possibly the very 1st sandbox game? ... In fact I might just find the time someday to actually finish it. 8)

I have managed to lay my hands on a MSTE motherboard, and now its working (somewhat). So I am looking forward to find out if any games can take advantages of a 68000 running at 16MHz. Frontier Elite II was always a bit jerky, and I never got to try Microprose Grand Prix, but I am guessing that MPGP is a seminal game, and kick Vroom into touch. Its like exploring history playing these games again. lol
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby maergrey » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:34 am

The 3D games which I really enjoyed are Stunt Car Racer, Epic, Hunter and the various Elite games.

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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby nativ » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:18 am

StarGlider, Resolution 101, Simulcra, Hover Sprint, Star Wars, Buggy Boy
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby simonsunnyboy » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:35 pm

nativ wrote:StarGlider, Resolution 101, Simulcra, Hover Sprint, Star Wars, Buggy Boy


Buggy Boy is certainly sprite based and not 3D.
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby bid » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:54 pm

I must say that I also thought that "Virus" was groundbreaking.

Its a real shame, that Elite never got updated till Frontier. And I did find Frontier Elite II a bit of a let down. Too expansive and I felt I was lonely and lost in a big empty (and skippy framerate) universe.

I tried FOFT (Federation of Free Traders), but I could never understand how it worked. Lol.

I really do think for me, Hunter, was the best in terms of using 3D for functionality, playability, exploration, and really nice UI. ... oh, and Carrier Command wasnt bad!
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby nativ » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:36 pm

simonsunnyboy wrote:
nativ wrote:StarGlider, Resolution 101, Simulcra, Hover Sprint, Star Wars, Buggy Boy


Buggy Boy is certainly sprite based and not 3D.



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Yep the Player is Sprite, the environment 3D. like Resolution 101.
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby Grunaki » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:19 pm

Surprised no-one's mentioned 'Another World' yet - I think that pushed the ST pretty much to its limits.

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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby kevcal; » Fri May 25, 2012 3:17 pm


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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby nativ » Fri May 25, 2012 7:10 pm

kevcal; wrote:I enjoyed Battle Command...
http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st ... _8681.html

Image


looks top
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby Grunaki » Sat May 26, 2012 2:49 am

Sherman M4 and Team Yankee were good tank simulators.

The 'Mercenary' games were pretty good sandbox games too - 'Escape From Targ' and 'The Second City' look dated now as they were basically ported from the 8-bit originals and are just wire-frame 3D, but 'Mercenary II - Damocles' and Mercenary III are full colour polygons.. You can even get into cabs in Mercenary III.

Damocles was a bit hard as you have something like 10 hours to complete the game - you're trying to prevent a comet from crashing into a planet. There are loads of planets in the system you're in and you can visit them all, but leaving the atmosphere in the original ship you're given sends the clock into overdrive and destroys the planet in a few seconds, (a bit like trying to get onto the other islands on the GTA games before they're unlocked - you get a crazy police presence after you that wipes you out in a matter of moments), so you're forced to follow the plot and progress with it.

Holy crap, I never even noticed that no-one's mentioned 'Carrier Command'! That's a must-play! :oops:
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Re: Best 3D ST games??

Postby alexh » Sat May 26, 2012 8:15 am

I always enjoyed the Freescape games.

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